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Old 08-04-2017, 10:43 PM   #871
sir_pudding
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I don't see that THS failed as a roleplaying game.
It doesn't appear to be as successful as Eclipse Phase
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On the other hand, while I like the premise of Madness Dossier, I really can't envision a campaign I would run in it.
Sandman field operations seems like the obvious thing...
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Originally Posted by AOTA View Post
Some thing I would love to see is an adventure written for Maddess Dossier something that I could introduce the the world to my players.
"Iraqi Irruptor Blues" is a thing, I realize that a lot of people didn't think it was Laundry Files enough or whatever, but is still a thing.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:13 PM   #872
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It doesn't appear to be as successful as Eclipse Phase Sandman field operations seems like the obvious thing.
By that standard, nearly every RPG other than D&D is a failure. But I'm not thinking of commercial success; I'm thinking of success at enabling running games. I've been able to run campaigns in THS that my players enjoyed in a big way.

As for "the obvious thing," that assume you have some idea how you would run Sandman field operations. I haven't a clue.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:15 PM   #873
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
I do not really agree with that. GURPS is not complex. At least, it can be played very simply.

4 Basic attributes, a couple of advantages and disadvantages, a dozen of skills and you are ready to play. Likewise, if you content yourself with GURPS Lite rules, things are very simple.

The Mook and Colin already did a lot of work to show how GURPS can be easy to play.

The problem is that GURPS is not introduced like that. Each character you can see in published books, each template is written with dozens of advantages and disadvantages and tons of skills. And all those stats are abbreviated and full of square brackets and other strange symbols which make them looks like a computer program!

Just look at Katsaya, in Caravan to Ein Arris, for instance (page 6). Here are her skills:
Skills: Dancing (A) DX-1 [1]-12; Fast-Draw (Knife) (E) DX+1 [2]-14; Knife (E) DX+1 [2]-14; Leadership (A) IQ+2 [8]-15; Politics (A) IQ+3 [12]-16; Savoir-Faire (Catho) (E) IQ+2 [4]-15; Savoir-Faire (Lantara) (E) IQ [1]-13; Stealth (A) DX-2 [1]-11.

When a newcomer look at that, he cannot avoid thinking that GURPS is terribly complex.

While ...
Skills: Dancing (Average) Dexterity-1, 12 [1]; Fast-Draw, Knife (Easy) Dexterity+1, 14 [2]; Knife (Easy) Dexterity+1, 14 [2]; Leadership (Average) Intelligence+2, 15 [8]; Politics (Average) Intelligence+3, 16 [12]; Savoir-Faire, Catho (Easy) Intelligence+2, 15 [4]; Savoir-Faire, Lantara (Easy) Intelligence+0, 13 [1]; Stealth (Average) Dexterity-2, 11 [1].

... is much more readable, even for someone who don't yet know the rules. OK, it takes a little more space. But it is the cost of understanding.

So, when writing for newbies, thinks must be very readable if we want to avoid making them flee away and think forever that GURPS is as complex as C++.
Edit
And what GURPS needs to attract newcomers may just be things really designed for newcomers, that is, things which don't suppose that they already know the whole game, with its abbreviations, conventions, habits ... And which doesn't suppose they are immediately ready to use it as experienced GURPS game masters.
Good, this is one problem of Gurps that other RPGs dont have.

Now lets show what is a simple skill list:
Skills:
Dancing -12; Fast-Draw (Knife) -14; Knife -14; Leadership -15; Politics -16; Savoir-Faire (Catho) -15; Savoir-Faire (Lantara) -13; Stealth -11.
More easy to understand, no ?

Why the hell the developers put all the difficulty, attribute and point cost in every damn skill, if they give the total point cost of the template/NPC ? And this gets worse when we talk about spell list...

This only makes the system look more hard to understand and makes the template /NPC look "polutted"/less user friend!
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:43 PM   #874
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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Originally Posted by 4rc4num View Post
Why the hell the developers put all the difficulty, attribute and point cost in every damn skill, if they give the total point cost of the template/NPC ? And this gets worse when we talk about spell list...

This only makes the system look more hard to understand and makes the template /NPC look "polutted"/less user friend!
Well, Knife-14 isn't the same as Knife DX+2. There are times you need to know that it is DX+2. For example, anytime you float skills to other attributes or to 10.

GM: "The heroes creep rush into the throne room and find the King dead on the floor, with a knife in his back."
Rogue: "I'm really good with knives, what can I tell about the knife?"
GM: "Roll your Knife skill based off of IQ."
Rogue: "The sample character sheet says, I've got DX+2, so that's just IQ+2, right?"
GM: "Yep."
Rogue: "Cool...I make it by 3."

If you just give Knife-14, that won't help.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:58 PM   #875
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
By that standard, nearly every RPG other than D&D is a failure. But I'm not thinking of commercial success; I'm thinking of success at enabling running games. I've been able to run campaigns in THS that my players enjoyed in a big way.
Well we were discussing why the later but similar game seems to be more successful, which I think is the context that in which lacking a clear initial campaign frame was seen as a "failure".
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As for "the obvious thing," that assume you have some idea how you would run Sandman field operations. I haven't a clue.
The stuff in the Opening the Madness Dossier chapter doesn't help? I know you've read The Laundry Files novels, so that is definitely inspirational, maybe read Declare by Tim Powers, or even some LeCarre too, or adapt some Delta Green adventures? Action also has a lot to say about how to structure adventures.

Essentially it's spy thriller or technothriller stuff. A typical adventure starts with a briefing, then they get a loadout (and can request more gear, don't forget to wrench skills too), then they are deployed, there are complications (typically because their intelligence was wrong or incomplete, a third party interferes, or there is a mole), the Sandmen may salvage the mission objectives by adapting, there is typically a showdown of some kind, then debriefing (and update the strategic map).

In my game, since they've done a couple if missions successfully, they are getting much broader mission parameters and the freedom to plan their own ops, so really I only need to come up with the intel brief and the complications.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 08-05-2017 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:19 AM   #876
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
Well, Knife-14 isn't the same as Knife DX+2. There are times you need to know that it is DX+2. For example, anytime you float skills to other attributes or to 10.

GM: "The heroes creep rush into the throne room and find the King dead on the floor, with a knife in his back."
Rogue: "I'm really good with knives, what can I tell about the knife?"
GM: "Roll your Knife skill based off of IQ."
Rogue: "The sample character sheet says, I've got DX+2, so that's just IQ+2, right?"
GM: "Yep."
Rogue: "Cool...I make it by 3."

If you just give Knife-14, that won't help.
That's a fairly obscure case, and easily worked around. "Roll Knife based off IQ; Knife normally comes off DX, so if your IQ is two less than your DX, that'll be a -2 to your normal skill".

I heartily endorse simplifying NPC stat blocks. They should be written for immediate use (including combat damage with usual weapons etc), but not showing the underlying mechanics. On the rare occasions that those are relevant, the GM can work them out. A small bit of occasional work for the GM is better than constant unnecessary detail.
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Old 08-05-2017, 01:54 AM   #877
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
Well, Knife-14 isn't the same as Knife DX+2. There are times you need to know that it is DX+2. For example, anytime you float skills to other attributes or to 10.

GM: "The heroes creep rush into the throne room and find the King dead on the floor, with a knife in his back."
Rogue: "I'm really good with knives, what can I tell about the knife?"
GM: "Roll your Knife skill based off of IQ."
Rogue: "The sample character sheet says, I've got DX+2, so that's just IQ+2, right?"
GM: "Yep."
Rogue: "Cool...I make it by 3."

If you just give Knife-14, that won't help.
I never put the complicated expression on character sheets. I just say, "Okay, is your DX the same as your IQ? Use the difference between them as a bonus or penalty."
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:02 AM   #878
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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The thing that really made Eclipse Phase more successful than THS, in my view, is that Eclipse Phase had a campaign in mind. "You are all trans/posthumans who work for Firewall and fight existential bad guys."
Yes. That is exactly what I mean, even if I didn't use the same words. A precise campaign, and a lot of adventures to play that campaign ...

Add to that the fact that you also have a free set giving quick-start-rules plus an adventure and you immediately understand why Eclipse Phase do attract much more newcomers than Transhuman Space.

You can try it and play it out of the box before thinking of writing your own adventures.

What a pity. Transhuman Space could have been such a blockbuster. I'm sure that Eclipse Phase's authors did reed it.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:11 AM   #879
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Default Re: What GURPS needs... now

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The stuff in the Opening the Maddess Dossier chapter doesn't help? I know you've read The Laundry Files novels, so that is definitely inspirational, maybe read Declare by Tim Powers, or even some LeCarre too, or adapt some Delta Green adventures? Action also has a lot to say about how to structure adventures.

Essentially it's spy thriller or technothriller stuff. A typical adventure starts with a briefing, then they get a loadout (and can request more gear, don't forget to wrench skills too), then they are deployed, there are complications (typically because their intelligence was wrong or incomplete, a third party interferes, or there is a mole), the Sandmen may salvage the mission objectives by adapting, there is typically a showdown of some kind, then debriefing (and update the strategic map).
I don't own any Delta Green material, and if I did, it wouldn't be adventures. I've read the Laundry Files, and Declare, and several Le Carré novels. But I don't really see how you'd turn any of those into an "adventure." And no, Ken's material doesn't give me a sense of "to run an adventure, do A, B, and C." It's a brilliant conceptual structure, and I've borrowed from it more than once, but my basic premise is "reality shard = super" and that gives rise to a quite different sort of campaign. I don't know how to run it straight.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:16 AM   #880
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Maddess Dossier has a built-in campaign frame, a very dark setting where the PCs have to do bad things, and a doomed struggle against cosmic horror.
That's a good point. But it would be much better with several ready to play adventures.

Here again, we are in the "read it and do a lot of preparation work to play" model instead of the "read and play" one. Contrary to Eclipse Phase, Call of Cthulhu, and most other publisher's products.

That prevents me to buy Madness Dossier, even if I already know GURPS quite well. So, what can think a newcomer about it?
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