Throwing Stuff at Places

[Cheomesh]

I only found one thread on this: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=16536

No big-wig conclusions seem to have been made. Here's the question:

The Throwing skill in Basic has a default of DX-3 for hitting people with things. But if I want to throw it in an "area", it's actually a default of DX.

The Campaigns book on Throwing, however, says that throwing at an "area" - in a high arc - is at +4.

So, does an unskilled character throw at an "area" for DX+4 (combining the two rules), DX+1 (DX-3 default +4 from the other rule), or is it actually just DX (the +4 not being applicable?)

What about skilled characters? Just Skill+4? Or is the +4 misleading?

I'm confused on this, but the lack of threads on this forum about it (unless hidden away somewhere INSIDE other threads) leads me to believe it's not actually as confusing as it seems.

M.

[kdtipa]

I don't have the books with me to look to see if I can find something, so my response is more how I'd look at it based on what you wrote.

I've always assumed the "throw it in an area" from the throwing skill means one hex. So bouncing a grenade off a person is at a default of DX-3, but tossing it in the area they're standing in is only DX.

The campaigns book rule... I'm guessing is talking about a bigger area. +4 on the size chart is what? 10 yards? So an area maybe 10 yards long gets you the +4? This is just a guess.

But in any case, I'd bet the +4 mentioned in Campaigns is in a context different from the skill defaults.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

The campaigns book rule... I'm guessing is talking about a bigger area. +4 on the size chart is what? 10 yards? So an area maybe 10 yards long gets you the +4? This is just a guess.

But in any case, I'd bet the +4 mentioned in Campaigns is in a context different from the skill defaults.

The +4 in campaigns is for targeting a hex.

It's potentially in a different context, but the uncertainty is in the 'use DX instead of a Throwing default' side, not in the attacking an area rules.

[Nereidalbel]

The high arc is what gets you the +4, even without Throwing Skill. Without it, you just roll at DX to get that water balloon (or grenade) to land within a couple feet of somebody. Throwing Skill gets the +4 to target a hex, regardless of high arc or not.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The high arc is what gets you the +4, even without Throwing Skill. Without it, you just roll at DX to get that water balloon (or grenade) to land within a couple feet of somebody. Throwing Skill gets the +4 to target a hex, regardless of high arc or not.

You seem to have said three different, unrelated, and semi-contradictory things here.

(It's probably worth pointing out that Throwing defaults to DX-3, so a +4 bonus to that default would be better than rolling DX. And, on the other hand, it's an Average skill, so having one point in it is worse than rolling DX.)

[Tomsdad]

Personally I'd have the rules in campaign (+4 to have your object land in an area the size of hex, roll scatter for Hex x MoF), trump the rather more nebulous line in Characters about unskilled throwers having a different default to hit a "general area".

Instead just have an unskilled thrower get the same +4 to hit hex sized area as everyone else, if you try and combine the two, or have the rule in Characters trump the one in Campaigns, you'll get a weird combination of result otherwise.

(although I release this goes against the general rule of thumb of having the specific trump the general)

May takes is that line in Characters is really just to show non specifically trained people throwing stuff in general directions in every day situations and not lousing it up. But really I say this can just as easily be covered by non combat bonuses, and the rules in campaigns anyway if your even going o rill for it at all.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The high arc is what gets you the +4, even without Throwing Skill. Without it, you just roll at DX to get that water balloon (or grenade) to land within a couple feet of somebody. Throwing Skill gets the +4 to target a hex, regardless of high arc or not.

While there are reasons to use a higher than normal arc to hit a flat bit of ground in a lot of cases, it's the fact that you are aiming at a flat bit of ground (a hex in size) that gives you the +4.

Put it this way if I'm trying to throw that water balloon at a hex (+4) 10 yards away (-4) for net 0, yes I'll likely use a high arc

But by your argument if I'm throwing at the same hex 1 yard away unless I throw it in a "high arc" it's as difficult as using a high arc onto hit a hex 10 yards away i.e +0?

Picture what a 6' man throwing a water balloon on the ground 3' in front of him looks like.

Ultimately high arc is as much to do with what you throwing, as well as what you throwing at (but yes in abstract coming down on top of your target means you're less likely to over shoot it by as much if you miss, as you would on a miss with a flatter trajectory)

[Varyon]

Throwing is weird. It's an Average skill, implying it's something like the superskill that all the Thrown Weapon skills are specializations of (Thrown Weapon is DX/E) - but most of those don't even have a default from Throwing! On top of that, instead of defaulting to DX-5 like every other DX/A skill, it defaults to DX-3, which is even better than a DX/E skill.

Honestly, it's about as useful as a typical Thrown Weapon skill. If it stays Average, it should probably work with all thrown weapons (it's basically Throwing Art without the damage bonus and cinematic ability to kill people with playing cards and such), otherwise it should be DX/E (in which case you could call it something like Throwing Weapon (Ball)). Either way, it should probably go back to following the normal defaulting rules (so DX-4 for DX/E, DX-5 for DX/A), and then just get the normal +4 for targeting a hex instead of being some sort of confusing super-special snowflake. If you really want to have it see a bonus on its default to account for basically everyone having some experience with it (on account of essentially every culture having a childhood game that involves throwing stuff at other stuff), I'd honestly suggest giving everyone a free Dabbler Perk involving Throwing, Area Knowledge (Hometown), and similar.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Varyon

On top of that, instead of defaulting to DX-5 like every other DX/A skill, it defaults to DX-3, which is even better than a DX/E skill.

That's a built-in racial +2 bonus for being a human and going with human throwing instincts/muscles.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

That's a built-in racial +2 bonus for being a human and going with human throwing instincts/muscles.

An unstated Racial Bonus that only applies if you lack the skill and is halved when targeting an area strikes me as exceedingly odd and finicky.

Yeah, humans are pretty awesome at throwing stuff. However, I wouldn't expect the vast majority of characters, even of wildly different species, to have a different throwing ability than humans unless they have morphological issues (like No Fine Manipulators) or a Racial Incompetence (or, rather, Anti-Talent, as it would probably apply to all Thrown Weapon skills as well). They might not have quite as strong of a throw if their ancestors weren't brachiators*, but that's either below resolution or can be resolved with an appropriate Quirk or Disadvantage ("Everything But Throwing" is probably a -5% or -10% Limitation on Striking ST, so Lowered Throwing ST would be [-1] per -4 or -2 to ST).

*Spellcheck suggests chiropractors here. Just thought that was worth a mention.