Fantasy Trip Pole Weapons and Charges

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Kirk

... The first is when you declare an option and execute the *movement* portion of it, then executing the non-movement portion according to your DX, in general.

When the rules say you may "change your option after the movement..." we take that to mean when your turn to act comes.

So you have to commit to an option before doing anything, *then* execute the movement portion of that option. Everybody does the same thing, then everyone acts according to DX, changing their options as possible and as they see fit. ...

So say Bzopz the DX 11 wizard is unengaged, declares he's going to cast a spell and then steps, but then two thugs unexpectedly declare their option is to Attack and move up and engage Bzopz. You're saying if they have higher DX than Bzopz, he won't be able to change his option to Defend before they attack? And you wonder if maybe he can't Defend anyway because he didn't start the turn engaged?

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Skarg

So say Bzopz the DX 11 wizard is unengaged, declares he's going to cast a spell and then steps, but then two thugs unexpectedly declare their option is to Attack and move up and engage Bzopz. You're saying if they have higher DX than Bzopz, he won't be able to change his option to Defend before they attack? And you wonder if maybe he can't Defend anyway because he didn't start the turn engaged?

Just to be clear (and this example is a little long), each turn is about 5 seconds, and the IGO UGO wargaming nature of TFT combat (which I really like) means that the game is trying to simulate simultaneous actions by time slicing and putting restrictions on how often and when a character can change his intent without being based on more omniscient understandings of the Player.

And so as I understand your example, let's say the Wiz is hiding around a corner but suspects something bars his way down the corridor. Both sides roll, he loses, and the other side, say the GM, says Wiz declares first.

Wiz thinks, being pursued by wargs, need to get a move on, I'll step past this corner and trust my spell casting to get the job done, whatever that may be. He declares "Cast spell" and takes one step around the corner.

The two guards who heard him at the corner have been crouched and waiting for him, declare "Charge attack", leap forward, and strike at the wizard.

If they are quicker than the Wiz, they get their attack attempts at appropriate DX, if not, the Wiz can say, "Defend", forego any spellcasting, and hope the extra die is enough to avoid being hit, or he can cast dazzle spell instead and hope that does the trick.

IF he had moved two hexes, however, he would not be able to cast a spell nor defend, because he has moved more than the one hex shift allowed in Shift and Defend. A case *could* be made that he could never choose defend even having moved one hex, because he *moved* one hex and didn't *shift* one hex (done only when engaged), but we wouldn't play that technically and would allow the movement of one hex and a defend option.

Another question comes up, let's say the guards only had thrown weapons, would the wizard be able to switch to *dodge* (and only useful if his DX was higher than the guards)? Since he is engaged, *dodge*, the way we see the rules, is *not* an option.

With a few simple wording changes, I think SJ can clarify what he intended the rules to allow, and I certainly hope he does address this. And as I mentioned before, this also affects the lethality and use of pole weapons, so is even more important to do.

[Chris Rice]

This leads to an interesting problem with the DEFEND option; it seems to be a bit of an anomaly in the rules as it doesn't actually allow your character to do anything, but it does affect what others do (or how they do it). Since Defend is the action portion of a players turn it takes effect in DX order. This means that the character with the lowest DX can never really defend since everyone always acts before them. Even if they choose Defend every turn it never kicks in because their DX is too low.

We always played that a character who wanted to defend was always defending for the whole turn regardless of DX and the example of play in Melee suggests this was the design intent although the rules say different.

I'm curious as to how everyone else played Defend.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Kirk

... IF he had moved two hexes, however, he would not be able to cast a spell nor defend, because he has moved more than the one hex shift allowed in Shift and Defend. A case *could* be made that he could never choose defend even having moved one hex, because he *moved* one hex and didn't *shift* one hex (done only when engaged), but we wouldn't play that technically and would allow the movement of one hex and a defend option.

So you think the CHANGING OPTIONS section saying you can switch to Defend to meet changing conditions if you've moved 1/2 MA or less is just wrong? To me, it reinforces the interpretation that the wording about Shifting and being Engaged to Defend in the Options section is just a confusing way of mentioning the limits of being Engaged (which is what I think the Shift and assumption you'd only choose to Defend when Engaged i.e. not thinking about 2-hex jabs) is about.

Originally Posted by Kirk

Another question comes up, let's say the guards only had thrown weapons, would the wizard be able to switch to *dodge* (and only useful if his DX was higher than the guards)? Since he is engaged, *dodge*, the way we see the rules, is *not* an option.

Yes, whether you can Dodge a thrown weapon by someone who Engages you is another technical interpretation question to clarify. Again, I think the CHANGING OPTIONS section makes it clear that the only requirement is about hexes moved (and whether you've actually done anything with your option yet or not, whether that means taking an action, causing someone a +1 die to hit you, or changing body position - which should also be explicitly spelled out).

Originally Posted by Kirk

.With a few simple wording changes, I think SJ can clarify what he intended the rules to allow, and I certainly hope he does address this. And as I mentioned before, this also affects the lethality and use of pole weapons, so is even more important to do.

Yeah, I agree, as your and my and others' different interpretations show there are many ways people have interpreted the rules.

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

This leads to an interesting problem with the DEFEND option; it seems to be a bit of an anomaly in the rules as it doesn't actually allow your character to do anything, but it does affect what others do (or how they do it). Since Defend is the action portion of a players turn it takes effect in DX order. This means that the character with the lowest DX can never really defend since everyone always acts before them. Even if they choose Defend every turn it never kicks in because their DX is too low.

We always played that a character who wanted to defend was always defending for the whole turn regardless of DX and the example of play in Melee suggests this was the design intent although the rules say different.

I'm curious as to how everyone else played Defend.

Both Kirk and I don't think of Defend as "the action portion of a player's turn" but as the Option, which gets declared (and in my interpretation, possibly changed) before the player takes an action. To me it's very clear that Defend is an Option not an action and so is in effect as written throughout the turn (unless/until the Option changes per the CHANGING OPTIONS section in Wizard and Advanced Melee). It's also evident in the examples e.g. TURN 7 in Melee - Flavius (adjDX 6) Defends and causes Wulf (adjDX 10) to roll 4 dice to hit him.

[Chris Rice]

I've extracted this from my copy of Melee:

"Actions take place during the Action phase of a turn, when all movement is completed. Actions are performed in order of adjusted dexterity.

Actions for Engaged figures:

Shift one hex whilst remaining engaged and....

(i) defend"

That seems quite explicit to me. Defending is an action.

[ecz]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

This leads to an interesting problem with the DEFEND option; it seems to be a bit of an anomaly in the rules as it doesn't actually allow your character to do anything, but it does affect what others do (or how they do it). Since Defend is the action portion of a players turn it takes effect in DX order. This means that the character with the lowest DX can never really defend since everyone always acts before them. Even if they choose Defend every turn it never kicks in because their DX is too low.

We always played that a character who wanted to defend was always defending for the whole turn regardless of DX and the example of play in Melee suggests this was the design intent although the rules say different.

I'm curious as to how everyone else played Defend.

exactly as you, the only way it is possible.
Also we automatically gave +1DX for the next attack after one turn of defend and +2 DX after two consecutive Defend. the Defending Characters is "waiting for a opportunity"

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by ecz

exactly as you, the only way it is possible.
Also we automatically gave +1DX for the next attack after one turn of defend and +2 DX after two consecutive Defend. the Defending Characters is "waiting for a opportunity"

Yes, we see defend not as an action so much as an option. In seeing it as an action, for it to make good sense, when choosing at the beginning of the turn before movement, it lasts all turn long.

If, however, one wants to change their "action" or "option", that happens at DX time. So if someone picks defend as their initial "option", regardless of DX, if would affect all relevant attacks during that turn. If an appropriate attack is made against the selector of defend to roll an extra die, when that character's turn to act comes he may *not* change his "action" from defend.

If not, however, he could change from, say "Shift and Attack" to "Shift and Defend" if there were any characters left that he feared being struck by, or if his attack is no longer valued for whatever reason.

There may also be a/some examples of combat that implicitly show how defend works during the entire turn, but my rules are now packed away and not easily referenced.

All of this, as someone mentioned, leads credence to TFT needing more carefully constructed option descriptions, not to change or improve the game, but to clarify to avoid rules variantism amongst players.

I remember, a very long time ago, I played in a TFT tourney at a convention in Austin, probably in the early 80s. I was in front of a character that had already executed the movement portion of his turn, which consisted solely of deciding which of us to face directly. I was left on his left front side, so I declared "Shift and Attack", being currently engaged, and slid around to his left side hex.

The GM promptly informed me that that was not a legal move, as I had to *stay* engaged by the character in front of me to execute a Shift and Attack option, since it was only for *engaged* characters.

I was incredulous. "Are you saying that you are interpreting the rule about being engaged applies to the character *after* the shift? Really? You are saying that the rule protects the opponent from being surrounded and attacked?"

He said yes, and the attack was disallowed. I thought, wow, I never would have thought to interpret the rule that way, and it doesn't even make since that I can't, through good tactical play, shift around to the side of a character to hit him.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

This leads to an interesting problem with the DEFEND option; it seems to be a bit of an anomaly in the rules as it doesn't actually allow your character to do anything, but it does affect what others do (or how they do it). Since Defend is the action portion of a players turn it takes effect in DX order. This means that the character with the lowest DX can never really defend since everyone always acts before them. Even if they choose Defend every turn it never kicks in because their DX is too low.

We always played that a character who wanted to defend was always defending for the whole turn regardless of DX and the example of play in Melee suggests this was the design intent although the rules say different.

I'm curious as to how everyone else played Defend.

Hi Everyone, Chris.
On page 2 of Advanced Melee it says...

"...During each turn, each figure can execute one "option" from the list below."

On page 3 of Advance Melee it is says...

... "(3) MOVEMENT. The first player chooses ONE option for each of his figures, and executes the MOVEMENT part (if any) of that option... "

(Other players in turn pick options, and then do movement for all figures on their side.)

... "(4) ACTIONS. All attacks, spell-castings attempts to disbelieve, etc., are carried out. ..."

On page 4 of Advance Melee it says,

"CHANGING OPTIONS
It is legal to change options AFTER the movement part of the turn, to meet changing conditions. The only requirement is that the figure must not have already have moved more than the NEW option allows. ..."

Emphasis added.

*****

So the option is picked before movement. You are free at any time to change your option, not only when it is your turn to take an action.

Once you have caused someone to roll an extra die to attack you by defending, you have used up your (only) option that turn. If you have not caused them to roll an extra die, you are free to change your option. When your turn to act comes, you take the action part of the turn, which uses up your only option.

No special rules are required. No clarification of rules is needed. It is all there.

*****

Now if Steve Jackson WANTS to change the rules so that you can only change your action when it is your turn to act in the action phase he is free to do so, by changing the text on page 3.

I think that would be a terrible idea tho. It would mean all players should take a defend option, and only change it to something else when they actually do something else. The reason to always take defend first, is you can't otherwise defend against higher DX figures.

This rule change would make the game worse, for no conceivable improvement to game play.

*****

I've seen perhaps a dozen to a score of TFT games which were not using my rules. None of them have forced people to only change their options during the action portion of the turn. I really do not think that "only changing options in the action phase during your turn to act", is what Steve Jackson intended in his rules.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Everyone, Chris.
On page 2 of Advanced Melee it says...

"...During each turn, each figure can execute one "option" from the list below."

On page 3 of Advance Melee it is says...

... "(3) MOVEMENT. The first player chooses ONE option for each of his figures, and executes the MOVEMENT part (if any) of that option... "

(Other players in turn pick options, and then do movement for all figures on their side.)

... "(4) ACTIONS. All attacks, spell-castings attempts to disbelieve, etc., are carried out. ..."

On page 4 of Advance Melee it says,

"CHANGING OPTIONS
It is legal to change options AFTER the movement part of the turn, to meet changing conditions. The only requirement is that the figure must not have already have moved more than the NEW option allows. ..."

Emphasis added.

*****

So the option is picked before movement. You are free at any time to change your option, not only when it is your turn to take an action.

Once you have caused someone to roll an extra die to attack you by defending, you have used up your (only) option that turn. If you have not caused them to roll an extra die, you are free to change your option. When your turn to act comes, you take the action part of the turn, which uses up your only option.

No special rules are required. No clarification of rules is needed. It is all there.

*****

Now if Steve Jackson WANTS to change the rules so that you can only change your action when it is your turn to act in the action phase he is free to do so, by changing the text on page 3.

I think that would be a terrible idea tho. It would mean all players should take a defend option, and only change it to something else when they actually do something else. The reason to always take defend first, is you can't otherwise defend against higher DX figures.

This rule change would make the game worse, for no conceivable improvement to game play.

*****

I've seen perhaps a dozen to a score of TFT games which were not using my rules. None of them have forced people to only change their options during the action portion of the turn. I really do not think that "only changing options in the action phase during your turn to act", is what Steve Jackson intended in his rules.

Warm regards, Rick.

We see the same rules, but not the same conclusion. You are free to change options after the Movement part of the turn, which is therefore the Action part of the turn as we read it, there being 4 parts of a turn, movement being 3 and actions 4.

If not interpreted this way, then it is a bit chaotic since at *anytime* after movement I could change options, according to your interpretation.

So I could declare an option along with my mates, we all move, then opponents declare and during their movement change my option, or as they are choosing their options, with everybody yelling out option changes as moves are being executed, and maybe even more than once, since it doesn't even really say more than "you can change your option".

And the rules definitely need clarification, as in the example I stated.

Keeping a figure from shifting and attacking to another figure's side, because he has effectively "disengaged" from him by working to his back, is one interpretation, though rather strict and nonsensical IMO for the reasons stated, but there are other problems as we have discussed as with the lack of a shift and dodge or the ability to move up to half and defend, which also effect the lethality of pole weapons, especially.

I think the mere fact that we all don't agree exactly on how to execute the basics of a combat turn are evidence enough that clarification is needed! :)

Oh, and not everyone will take a defend option, because that is a sure fire way to never get to attack when you want, *unless* you are the fastest in the fight, and then, assuming you want to risk losing your attack option, you still have to decide to either attack or defend, and if attack then endure everybody whacking on you, and if defend, not ever getting to attack. We play this way and rarely will anyone select shift and defend automatically unless they plan on having someone commit them for the entire turn to defense and no attack by attacking them. Those who want to attack, won't choose defend.

[Chris Rice]

Since the first release of the reborn system will be Melee/Wizard rather than the ITL/Advanced stuff, I've been going back over the originals and therefore made my comments based on those rules rather than anything advanced.

It's pretty clear that there are a number of grey areas in the rules which have been interpreted differently by GMs and players. This is a perfect opportunity for Steve to tidy these up once and for all.