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Old 02-28-2018, 05:17 PM   #1
Joxer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Salvador, BA - Brazil
Default Striking ST and No Fine Manipulators

No Fine Manipulators gives a -40% modifier to Striking ST. How it can interact if a character with NFM includes a One Attack Only modifier to Striking ST(-60%)?
If seems that an attack wich doesn't use a fine manipulator (Bite for example) gets a free -40% modifier, capping the Striking ST at -80%. Is that right? In this a case for the "rule" that a disadvantage that doesn't limit in any way should not give points (modifier in this case) even when Striking ST imposes the discount for NFM?

Forgive bad grammar.
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Old 02-28-2018, 07:14 PM   #2
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Striking ST and No Fine Manipulators

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joxer
No Fine Manipulators [p. B144] gives a -40% modifier to Striking ST [p. B88]. How it can interact if a character with NFM includes a One Attack Only modifier to Striking ST (-60%) [Powers p.79]?

If seems that an attack which doesn't use a fine manipulator (Bite for example) gets a free -40% modifier, capping the Striking ST at -80%. Is that right? In this a case for the "rule" that a disadvantage that doesn't limit in any way should not give points (modifier in this case) even when Striking ST imposes the discount for NFM?

[Edited from original to add page references.]
Taking it step by step:

The No Fine Manipulators disadvantage [p. B144] is a Disadvantage, not a Limitation. At the -30 point level, it really is No Fine Manipulators, i.e., “you have nothing approaching the human hand in terms of overall versatility. If you have a beak, tongue, prehensile tail, etc. that is as good as a hand, you do not have No Fine Manipulators!” (At the -50 point level, you have No Manipulators.) As well, “this trait is limited to non-humans and supers.” If you have the Disadvantage, and it implies only if you have the Disadvantage, then you may buy ST and DX with the Limitation: No Fine Manipulators (-40%). You get the discount on the cost of ST and DX because having the Disadvantage limits the usefulness of those two attributes. It is not a free -40% modifier.

Striking ST is a subset of the ST attribute, and it gets the same No Fine Manipulators limitation modifier of -40%, if ST was also bought with that limitation, which in turn implies that the character must have the No Fine Manipulators disadvantage [at either point level]. Consequently, the -40% modifier is not a “freebie” for Striking ST any more than it was for ST itself.

The One Attack Only limitation on Striking ST limits the application of Striking ST to just one natural attack, be it a bite, a particular striker etc. for a -60% limitation. As per Limitations [p. B110] modifiers add, but cap at a maximum of -80% total reduction in price.

Let’s assume that the character is a man-sized, rat-like super, Ratty, who has ST 40, with a further Striking ST 20 on his bite, and DX 14.

ST 40 is 30 ST above the baseline of ST 10 and would normally cost 300 points [10 points/+1], but the -40% modifiers for No Fine Manipulators brings the cost of ST down to 180 points. (Ratty has only paws at the ends of his limbs and a not very prehensile tail.)

The additional Striking ST would normally cost a character 100 points [5 points/+1] but Ratty has the No Fine Manipulators limitation and would normally buy +20 Striking ST at -40% for 60 points. However, Ratty has chosen the One Attack Only limitation for a further -60% modifier which would result in a net modifier of -100% making it free, but the -80% cap kicks in making the cost of +20 Striking ST, 20 points, but only applying to his bite.

His DX would normally cost 80 points (20 points/+1) but having the No Fine Manipulators limitation gives a -40% modifier making the cost 48 points.

Finally, Ratty takes Blunt Claws (under the Claws Advantage [p. B42]) for his paws at a cost of 3 points.

Ratty must have the No Fine Manipulators disadvantage in order to be able to take the No Fine Manipulators limitation and, in his case, he has it at the -30 point level.

Thus, the total cost to play Ratty is 180 + 20 + 48 + 3 – 30 = 221 points.

Now let’s look at how this affects Ratty’s damage:

Ratty’s bite is at ST 60 (ST 40 + Striking ST 20), which does basic Thrust damage of 7d-1, modified to thr-1 for Blunt Teeth for 7d-2 damage which is crushing. (An argument might be made that he has Fangs which would change the damage type to impaling, but wouldn’t change the dice rolled for damage.)

Ratty can strike with his paws at ST 40 (Striking ST doesn’t apply), which does basic Thrust 4d+1, doing thr-1 modified by +1 for blunt claws for a net damage of thr = 4d+1 if punching; and thr modified by +1 for blunt claws for a net thr+1 = 4d+2 if kicking.

I hope that clarifies it for you.
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Old 02-28-2018, 07:29 PM   #3
Joxer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Salvador, BA - Brazil
Default Re: Striking ST and No Fine Manipulators

Math was clear for me.
A character with NFM can buy cheaper ST because NFM limit in some way the possible "uses" of this ST (same subsets of ST, DX etc. as you stated).
A Striking ST with "One Attack Only" limitation for only Bite attack already covers the same limiting effects of NFM disadvantage. The problem I see here is taking on account both modifiers (-40% NFM and -60% OAO) means double dipping.

After all game effects are the same if you have:
  • Striking ST +1 (No fine Manipulator; One Attack Only: Bite) [1]; or
  • Striking ST +1 (One Attack Only: Bite) [2]
So, the cost is cheaper just because the character has NFM even for the same game effect?
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Old 02-28-2018, 07:59 PM   #4
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Striking ST and No Fine Manipulators

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joxer View Post
Math was clear for me.
A character with NFM can buy cheaper ST because NFM limit in some way the possible "uses" of this ST (same subsets of ST, DX etc. as you stated).
A Striking ST with "One Attack Only" limitation for only Bite attack already covers the same limiting effects of NFM disadvantage. The problem I see here is taking on account both modifiers (-40% NFM and -60% OAO) means double dipping.

After all game effects are the same if you have:
  • Striking ST +1 (No fine Manipulator; One Attack Only: Bite) [1]; or
  • Striking ST +1 (One Attack Only: Bite) [2]
So, the cost is cheaper just because the character has NFM even for the same game effect?
Ah. No, the game effects aren't the same.

If you have Striking ST (No Fine Manipulator), your underlying ST, even if it is still ST 10, also must have the No Fine Manipulator limitation, even though there is no point cost reduction on ST 10. You cannot "use your limbs to make repairs, pick locks, tie knots, wield weapons, etc., or even to grasp firmly."

Having Striking ST without the No Fine Manipulator limitation modifier, indicates that your underlying ST, even if ST 10, is not subject to those limitations.

That is the underlying difference between Striking ST +1 (No Fine Manipulators; One Attack Only: Bite) and Striking ST +1 (One Attack Only: Bite) and why the No Fine Manipulators limitation is still 1 point cheaper.

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 02-28-2018 at 07:59 PM. Reason: missing word
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Old 02-28-2018, 08:29 PM   #5
Joxer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Salvador, BA - Brazil
Default Re: Striking ST and No Fine Manipulators

I see (correct me if I am wrong) Striking ST as a acessibility limitation of standard ST. It's ST for Thrust and Swing Damage only (p. B88-89). If a character has NFM, it further limitates Striking ST (cannot "use your limbs ..." as you quoted).

So, a character with NFM have a baseline acessibility for his Striking ST (cannot use for ...). If I want to further narrow its Striking ST acessibility with One Attack Only limitation, it doesn't seems correct to add those acessibility modifiers. If I have a ability with acessibility: Can only be used for Bite damage It should not cost cheaper if I add in it's limitation Cannot be used for ..., since the former already covers the latter, even if it's a forced modifier.
That seems double dipping, and I see -40% discount due to NFM free points in this specific case, or in a different point of view, -60% for One Attack Only too expensive, since it's coming from a already limited Striking ST. My judgement would be that OAO overrides NFM and charge just -60%. Does it make sense?
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Old 02-28-2018, 09:22 PM   #6
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Striking ST and No Fine Manipulators

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joxer View Post
I see (correct me if I am wrong) Striking ST as a acessibility limitation of standard ST. It's ST for Thrust and Swing Damage only (p. B88-89). If a character has NFM, it further limitates Striking ST (cannot "use your limbs ..." as you quoted).

So, a character with NFM have a baseline acessibility for his Striking ST (cannot use for ...). If I want to further narrow its Striking ST acessibility with One Attack Only limitation, it doesn't seems correct to add those acessibility modifiers. If I have a ability with acessibility: Can only be used for Bite damage It should not cost cheaper if I add in it's limitation Cannot be used for ..., since the former already covers the latter, even if it's a forced modifier.
That seems double dipping, and I see -40% discount due to NFM free points in this specific case, or in a different point of view, -60% for One Attack Only too expensive, since it's coming from a already limited Striking ST. My judgement would be that OAO overrides NFM and charge just -60%. Does it make sense?
Striking ST isn't exactly an accessibility issue. Its primary use is modeling a character that strikes more powerfully than its overall ST would lead one to suspect. No Fine Manipulators or a Size modifier affect Striking ST if and only if ST itself has a No Fine Manipulators or a Size modifier. The theory back of that is that your Striking ST is just as affected by those limitations as your ST is.

GURPS doesn't give priority to one limitation over another, or for that matter to Enhancements over Limitations. While you consider the extra -20% modifier to be an extra "unearned" bonus for having added No Fine Manipulators to One Attack Only, it is an equally valid view to regard One Attack Only as getting a 20% decrease in its value as a Limitation on Striking ST that is already limited by having No Fine Manipulators because One Attack Only isn't as much of a limitation in that case.
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Old 03-01-2018, 05:43 PM   #7
Dingle
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ireland
Default Re: Striking ST and No Fine Manipulators

I don't think they should stack as limitations.

I think the One Attack Only limitation already includes the No fine Manipulators Limitation because it specifies natural attacks. Thus, there could be a One Weapon Only (Broadsword) -20% limitation for striking strength that doesn't include NFM. This seems to agree with the -20% one weapon/skill limitation on extra attack.

My interpretation for the No Fine Manipulators limitation on striking strength is mainly that you can't use a weapon to give you access to swing damage. Swing damage is about twice as much as thrust damage, and the main point of striking ST, but not always available, so -40% seems a fair limitation. You also don't get the fancy damage types without spending points on them.
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Old 03-01-2018, 06:46 PM   #8
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Striking ST and No Fine Manipulators

Broadsword Only would be One Skill Only (-20%), which is similar to the limitation of Extra Attack.
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