Using an Illusion's Senses

[zot]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

I think you are reading a lot into the idea of behaving like the real thing.

Behaving like the real thing =/= burning things. I think that all it means is that it acts exactly like the spell (causes damage, looks the same, blockes line of sight, seems to provide heat, etc). But like getting killed by an illusion, a person who 'burned to death' would be unsinged after the effect ended.

If they are exactly like the spell, why do the rules say these particular illusions "have somehow acquired extra power"?

In other words, what would that extra power be that allows them to "behave just like the real thing" and distinguishes them from other illusions?

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Neither do mine, but like $50 Regeneration spells, a plethora of low level wizard spies would change the world in a pretty fundamental way.

Just consider large scale military encounters. Both sides will be extremely clear of the extent of the opposing forces. There is no hiding a unit anywhere within miles. If you can get a beetle into the commanders tent, you will have seen their actual battle plans! The impact on how the military would have to operate in conditions of common and easy spying are actually too much for me to even grasp right now.

You do realize that illusion spells only last 12 rounds, right? So you'd have to get up to the commander's tent and then cast the spell and then send it it...that's a lot of time to risk getting caught. In other words, except for the most dedicated of spies (a wizard with spy talents) this isn't going to change anything about how the world works. Spells just don't last long enough.

Meanwhile the scout spell lasts 1 minute per ST...this makes it a far superior spell to illusion for scouting purposes.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by zot

If they are exactly like the spell, why do the rules say these particular illusions "have somehow acquired extra power"?

In other words, what would that extra power be that allows them to "behave just like the real thing" and distinguishes them from other illusions?

Yeah, okay, reading that, I see what you mean. Fair point.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

You do realize that illusion spells only last 12 rounds, right? So you'd have to get up to the commander's tent and then cast the spell and then send it it...that's a lot of time to risk getting caught. In other words, except for the most dedicated of spies (a wizard with spy talents) this isn't going to change anything about how the world works. Spells just don't last long enough.

Meanwhile the scout spell lasts 1 minute per ST...this makes it a far superior spell to illusion for scouting purposes.

I really hate to keep doing this but...

Page 139: "Images and illusions last 12 turns, unless renewed by a new casting of the spell. This gives them a further 12 turns, and so on. Once cast, an illusion or image can be renewed at any distance at no DX penalty." So you could just renew it like the Scout. A 1-hex illusion costs 2 ST though so maintaining it is twice as expensive. A large group of people with Aid could assist a wizard with either Scout or Illusion for a very long time...

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by zot

I really hate to keep doing this but...

Page 139: "Images and illusions last 12 turns, unless renewed by a new casting of the spell. This gives them a further 12 turns, and so on. Once cast, an illusion or image can be renewed at any distance at no DX penalty." So you could just renew it like the Scout. A 1-hex illusion costs 2 ST though so maintaining it is twice as expensive. A large group of people with Aid could assist a wizard with either Scout or Illusion for a very long time...

Yup. Or get reasonably close in disguise, then run an image scout out every so often. A glamour, followed by a series of image scouts should get you what you want almost all of the time. My players would be doing this constantly, and then so would everyone, and then the world changes!

Note: the renewal cost for images and illusions outside the initial range is doubled, and there is a max renewal at distance of 5 minutes (p139). Still, my eagle image can last 5 minutes and would cost 9 ST from the party to give me a perfect map of everything for miles around. Seriously - every map would be practically perfect.

However, and I cannot stress this enough: this is all a secondary effect from Image/Illusion - this is not their primary purpose at all! Scout spell only has ONE use, it is higher IQ than Image, same ST cost (maybe) and is way less flexible as a scout since we can have birds as images, something incredibly useful that the very spell which is for scouting does not give us! This alone tells me that Images as effective scouts is not something that is intended by the RAW.

[zot]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Yup. Or get reasonably close in disguise, then run an image scout out every so often. A glamour, followed by a series of image scouts should get you what you want almost all of the time. My players would be doing this constantly, and then so would everyone, and then the world changes!

Note: the renewal cost for images and illusions outside the initial range is doubled, and there is a max renewal at distance of 5 minutes (p139). Still, my eagle image can last 5 minutes and would cost 9 ST from the party to give me a perfect map of everything for miles around. Seriously - every map would be practically perfect.

However, and I cannot stress this enough: this is all a secondary effect from Image/Illusion - this is not their primary purpose at all! Scout spell only has ONE use, it is higher IQ than Image, same ST cost (maybe) and is way less flexible as a scout since we can have birds as images, something incredibly useful that the very spell which is for scouting does not give us! This alone tells me that Images as effective scouts is not something that is intended by the RAW.

I find it hard to nail down a "primary purpose" for Illusion because it's such a versatile spell but when we played in 1980, there was no Scout spell but the rules about seeing through image/illusion eyes were there back then and you can bet that this was one of the very common purposes of Illusion for us (once we all got into the 40+ attribute range, Illusion and Gate engineering were mostly what enabled one of our characters to eventually make a pressurized keep on an asteroid -- Gates are soooo powerful, even once the divination aspect is nerfed, that they just put Illusions to shame).

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by zot

I really hate to keep doing this but...

Page 139: "Images and illusions last 12 turns, unless renewed by a new casting of the spell. This gives them a further 12 turns, and so on. Once cast, an illusion or image can be renewed at any distance at no DX penalty." So you could just renew it like the Scout. A 1-hex illusion costs 2 ST though so maintaining it is twice as expensive. A large group of people with Aid could assist a wizard with either Scout or Illusion for a very long time...

Oh, I know, it has a max range, the cost is much more, etc. It doesn't have the versatility of the new spell.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Yup. Or get reasonably close in disguise, then run an image scout out every so often. A glamour, followed by a series of image scouts should get you what you want almost all of the time. My players would be doing this constantly, and then so would everyone, and then the world changes!

Except you have easily (and actually) used countermeasures like sentries with passphrases/gestures/etc to prevent that.

Ultimately though, yes, magic of any sort that can create an illusion, read a mind, or scry a location undo all real world examples of security and protection.

Note: the renewal cost for images and illusions outside the initial range is doubled, and there is a max renewal at distance of 5 minutes (p139). Still, my eagle image can last 5 minutes and would cost 9 ST from the party to give me a perfect map of everything for miles around. Seriously - every map would be practically perfect.

Not even close. Have you seen a life drawing class? People can't consistently draw vases, much less a to-scale map based on birds-eye-view. Sure, it might be better than what they had in the real world, but it wouldn't be perfect unless every wizard happened to also be a master artist and mapmaker.

However, and I cannot stress this enough: this is all a secondary effect from Image/Illusion - this is not their primary purpose at all! Scout spell only has ONE use, it is higher IQ than Image, same ST cost (maybe) and is way less flexible as a scout since we can have birds as images, something incredibly useful that the very spell which is for scouting does not give us! This alone tells me that Images as effective scouts is not something that is intended by the RAW.

I agree with the gist of this, but I would rather boost Scout than nerf illusion.
Also I think that once a meeting occurred in an army camp/captain's tent, you would kill any birds/rats/squirrels that happened to come into your tent. Heck, you would probably spend a moment to attempt to disbelieve everyone present, as a reasonable precaution.

Also, another question occurs to me. If you can see through their senses, and we still haven't decided if you benefit from their good senses though I think you do, are you limited by their bad senses? For example, if you saw through a dog, are you color blind? This also makes spying a bit more awkward.

[zot]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Yup. Or get reasonably close in disguise, then run an image scout out every so often. A glamour, followed by a series of image scouts should get you what you want almost all of the time. My players would be doing this constantly, and then so would everyone, and then the world changes!

Note: the renewal cost for images and illusions outside the initial range is doubled, and there is a max renewal at distance of 5 minutes (p139). Still, my eagle image can last 5 minutes and would cost 9 ST from the party to give me a perfect map of everything for miles around. Seriously - every map would be practically perfect.

However, and I cannot stress this enough: this is all a secondary effect from Image/Illusion - this is not their primary purpose at all! Scout spell only has ONE use, it is higher IQ than Image, same ST cost (maybe) and is way less flexible as a scout since we can have birds as images, something incredibly useful that the very spell which is for scouting does not give us! This alone tells me that Images as effective scouts is not something that is intended by the RAW.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Except you have easily (and actually) used countermeasures like sentries with passphrases/gestures/etc to prevent that
.
I agree with the gist of this, but I would rather boost Scout than nerf illusion.
Also I think that once a meeting occurred in an army camp/captain's tent, you would kill any birds/rats/squirrels that happened to come into your tent. Heck, you would probably spend a moment to attempt to disbelieve everyone present, as a reasonable precaution.

In modern-day warfare, secret meetings are held in a SCIF (Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility). Are you guys thinking that on Cidri, with Gates and magic items for sale, that battles would be run like the Mongols did during the 1200s?

To my mind, serious battles would involve wizards on both sides. This means that sensitive meetings and materials would be magically protected, like with Wards at a minimum. That would keep out all that stuff MikMod is worried about.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by zot

I find it hard to nail down a "primary purpose" for Illusion because it's such a versatile spell

Seriously? It's rather obviously to create the illusion that something is there which is not. It's not primarily a spying or information gathering spell, and as I have pointed out in RAW there are good reasons for thinking it cannot be used that way.

but when we played in 1980, there was no Scout spell but the rules about seeing through image/illusion eyes were there back then and you can bet that this was one of the very common purposes of Illusion for us.

Yes, for you. But I hope you are able to appreciate that other people may not have allowed that for the very good reasons I have outlined, and therefore it would not have been a common purpose at all?