Rapid Fire Houserules

[Sable Wyvern]

Originally Posted by SCAR

I assume you mean Rcl not RoF; since in your final example, RoF 2 will not have a third round!

Oops, yes. Fixed.

[DouglasCole]

I posted a bullet dispersion overlay somewhere on the forums. I will try and fimd it.

Another variant on usingg the Speed/range progression is by percentage. So if you make a roll by 10-12 you hit with 100% of shots fired. Or go uo 1 increment as a % of shots fired, etc. tjat takes care of miniguns.

Tjird rule: just make Rapid Fire progression double each time. 2-3 shots is +1, 4-7 is +2, 8-15 is +3, etc.

Rapid Strike is the way to go. Aim and Brace apply to both attacks, as does detrrmined.

[Jovus]

As a fairly simple kludge for the "I sprayed a ton of bullets at it and only one hit" problem, I divide ROF by 10, minimum one, discard fractions, and that's the number of bullets that hit per Rcl increment.

Shooting full-auto at hit-locations hasn't come up for me yet, but I think I'd rule that all other shots hit the torso, just for ease of play.

[apoc527]

I was contemplating fractional Rcl numbers to allow for multiple hits per point of MoS. This would require re-statting weapons though, unless you made it situational (I.e. Braced beam weapons, stabilized vehicle mounts, etc.).

Are we going for mostly personal combat, or the vehicle issues?

Finally, the 10% of RoF hitting per MoS is probably the most likely direction I'd be willing to go for a balance of playability and "realism." I put that in quotes because I don't think that achieving more hits per burst is ever going to be realistic--there's a very good reason no trained military teaches spray 'n pray!

[Jovus]

Originally Posted by apoc527

Finally, the 10% of RoF hitting per MoS is probably the most likely direction I'd be willing to go for a balance of playability and "realism." I put that in quotes because I don't think that achieving more hits per burst is ever going to be realistic--there's a very good reason no trained military teaches spray 'n pray!

For high-ROF weapons, it usually works out to something closer to ~7%. You don't even see a difference until you get up to RoF 20. Consider:

RoF 3 (semi auto): 3/10 = .3, minimum 1 bullet per MoS
RoF 10 (most full auto handhelds like battle rifles): 10/10 = 1 bullet per MoS
RoF 15 (machine pistols, SMGs): 15/10 = 1.5, discard fractions to 1 bullet per MoS

Only when you hit RoF 20 do you get 2 bullets per MoS, which methinks is made up for by the fact that you just wasted 17 other bullets to get those 3 on-target. However, if you don't agree, you can always change the denominator. 20 seems the next logical step. This house-rule was mostly made to address (perceived) issues with truly-immense RoF, like you might get from a minigun.

Also, even if you don't feel it's realistic, using it in an Action campaign can work well.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Sable Wyvern

My only problem with the rapid fire rules is the fact that every round that hits will strike the targeted location. Which, as the OP points out, can become quite ridiculous if you're aiming for an eye.

Fortunately, I am planning to use a slightly modified version of the variant hit location rules found at http://rpglair.weebly.com/hit-locations.html, which lend themselves to a solution.

The first round hits based on the MoS. The second round hits based on MoS - Rcl. The third round hits based on MoS - (Rclx2). Etc..

So, if your weapon is Rcl 2, you're firing at least three rounds and you hit with a MoS 5 while aiming at the head, the first round hits face, skull or neck, the second round (treated as MoS 3) is randomised between face, skull and neck, and the third round (treated as MoS 1) hits an entirely random location.

It's not perfect, because in the example above you could feasibly hit face, face, foot, but the chances of doing so are fairly slim and I still think that's a preferable result to eye, eye, eye.

Your hit location thing is cool. Consider it stolen for my games. How do you handle the targeted attack technique?

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I posted a bullet dispersion overlay somewhere on the forums. I will try and fimd it.

Another variant on usingg the Speed/range progression is by percentage. So if you make a roll by 10-12 you hit with 100% of shots fired. Or go uo 1 increment as a % of shots fired, etc. tjat takes care of miniguns.

Tjird rule: just make Rapid Fire progression double each time. 2-3 shots is +1, 4-7 is +2, 8-15 is +3, etc.

Rapid Strike is the way to go. Aim and Brace apply to both attacks, as does detrrmined.

Looking forward to the overlay!

Yeah you can mitigate the penalty but it still seems too high when choosing targets takes the same penalty as getting more attacks and choosing targets

Originally Posted by Jovus

As a fairly simple kludge for the "I sprayed a ton of bullets at it and only one hit" problem, I divide ROF by 10, minimum one, discard fractions, and that's the number of bullets that hit per Rcl increment.

Shooting full-auto at hit-locations hasn't come up for me yet, but I think I'd rule that all other shots hit the torso, just for ease of play.

What about shooting at less than full auto?

Originally Posted by apoc527

I was contemplating fractional Rcl numbers to allow for multiple hits per point of MoS. This would require re-statting weapons though, unless you made it situational (I.e. Braced beam weapons, stabilized vehicle mounts, etc.).

Are we going for mostly personal combat, or the vehicle issues?

Finally, the 10% of RoF hitting per MoS is probably the most likely direction I'd be willing to go for a balance of playability and "realism." I put that in quotes because I don't think that achieving more hits per burst is ever going to be realistic--there's a very good reason no trained military teaches spray 'n pray!

Both personal and vehicles. Mostly personal for hit locations. Otherwise mostly vehicles or vehicle sized things. The fractional Rcl makes sense given the precedence of Very Rapid Fire.

Trained militaries do what works best in their situations with the weapons they have. The rules can be more generous to rapid fire without encouraging unrealistic tactics.

[Jovus]

Originally Posted by Sindri

What about shooting at less than full auto?

I should clarify. I meant 'shooting at higher than RoF 1'. Let me stress, though, that I'd do it strictly for playability reasons.

Off the top of my head, I might divide the RoF into thirds and allow different hit locations for each third, counting penalties to hit separately against the margin of success. Put extra bullets in the last group. I guess I'm thinking something like this:

Sam Spade shoots Lenny the Crook with a Thompson, at RoF 10 with Rcl 2 because that sounds reasonable and IDHMBWM. He has Guns (SMG) at an effective 15, not counting hit locations.

He wants to hit the Face (-5), Vitals (-3) and Leg (-2)*

He rolls and gets a 6. That's success by 9. In the grouping, 3 shots are going toward the Face, 3 toward the Vitals, and 4 toward the Leg (because the remainder of 10/3 is 1).

Total hits: 1, for success, plus 4 more (MoS 9/2 = 4.5, drop fractions), which means 3 for the Face, 2 for the Vitals, and none for the Leg. But do they actually hit?

First bullet: 15-5(shooting for the Face)=10. He rolled a 6. Face hit
Second bullet: 15-2(recoil)-5=8. He rolled a 6. Face hit.
Third bullet : 15-4(recoil)-5=6. He rolled a 6. Face hit.

Fourth bullet: 15-3(shooting for the Vitals now)-6(recoil)=6. Vitals hit.
Fifth bullet : 15-3-8(recoil)=4. Vitals miss.
Sixth bullet: 15-3-10(recoil)=2 Vitals miss.

Seventh bullet: 15-2(shooting for the Leg now)-12=1 Leg miss, and good luck.
etc.

*I think these numbers are right, but as noted above IDHMBWM; either way, they work to illustrate the example.

[Gigermann]

I have a house-rule that if a missed shot is good enough to hit a "parent" location to the one being targeted, then it hits that "parent" location (FREX Torso would be "parent" to Vitals; a miss by one or two is still good enough to hit the Torso, so it does). An easy way to handle the OP's situation would be to assume the same: figure hits to the targeted location as usual, and any parent locations at the same time—the targeted location receives the usual number of hits, and the parent location gets hits numbering the difference between the intended target's hits and its own (also figured normally).

As to the "missing the aircraft carrier with a minigun" issue: seems to me that a workable (partial?) solution would be to modify the Point Blank mechanic, such that instead of applying at "10% of 1/2D," it applies when "SM exceeds the Speed/Range penalty" or somesuch.

[Sable Wyvern]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Your hit location thing is cool. Consider it stolen for my games. How do you handle the targeted attack technique?

First: The rules at the link are not my work, and I take no credit for them.

For targeted attacks, I haven't worked out the specifics, but will most likely allow the penalty to be bought off and then allow further points to increase MoS.

I will still require specialisation by face, neck etc...,

[Dwarf99]

I houserule that (50+(MoS x 5))% of shots fired hit the target. Size/Range Penalties adjust MoS and therefore hits.