Banestorm Navies

[scc]

Originally Posted by CraigM

* While the idea of screws with permanent motion enchantments is tempting, the default Magic rules make these ruinously expensive. Weather wizards are much cheaper, so expect sails to continue.

Going to have to disagree here, with no (other) guidelines on the cost of spell-casting the enchanting rules would have to be the base, meaning that after a number of days equal to the time it would take a single wizard to enchant the screw or screws it becomes more cost effective to buy the screw(s). If you decide that Ship's Wizard is a Struggling instead of Average job that only doubles the time, which pretty much makes things a question which lasts longer, and it's probably going to be decided in favor of the screw.

Also note that a screw propelled ship doesn't needed masts and sails, possibly excepting very small ones for emergancies.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Languages can (and should) totally still have defaults.

Can...should...whatever They don't as far as the written rules go. Personally I'd rule that an Anglic speaker speaks broken English and vice versa but that's a house rule.

[dcarson]

Building the entire ship of Essential Wood is probably overkill for a merchant ship. From what I understand one of the big long term problems with wooden sailing ships is hogging where the fact that the middle of the ship is more buoyant then the ends causes the keel to bend up in the middle. You can't fix it other then totally rebuilding the ship. So using Essential Wood on the keel and maybe other spells to fasten the pieces that make up the keel together stronger might be cost effective.

[CraigM]

Originally Posted by scc

Going to have to disagree here, with no (other) guidelines on the cost of spell-casting the enchanting rules would have to be the base, meaning that after a number of days equal to the time it would take a single wizard to enchant the screw or screws it becomes more cost effective to buy the screw(s). If you decide that Ship's Wizard is a Struggling instead of Average job that only doubles the time, which pretty much makes things a question which lasts longer, and it's probably going to be decided in favor of the screw.

Also note that a screw propelled ship doesn't needed masts and sails, possibly excepting very small ones for emergancies.

Dancing Object on a crankshaft gets you ST15 for 400 energy for 4/2 energy cost and one hour duration. It's another 1,000 energy if you want it self-powered (still needs two FP to initiate, though), plus 200 for Link if you want a gearbox.

At $33/EP standard enchanting rates, that's at least $13,400 and up to about $50,000 for a less than one horsepower motor. To drive anything bigger than a dinghy (or to get much speed in even the dinghy), you're going to need multiple enchantments, with no economy of scale except for the Link.

Enchanters need to be high magery and high skill; ship's wizards don't. And motion enchantments on screws or paddles convert magical energy into horsepower much less efficiently than wind magic and sails do.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by hal

One thing that I wonder at...

SHAPE PLANT

As a spell, it permits one to mold plant material into an shape required. It also to my mind, would change the way hulls would be manufactured in ways that were not possible in normal technological environments.

Consider for example, the ability to extrude elements of the spars such that they meld together without the need for nails or glue - or used in conjunction with glue make for a better fit that would not be possible otherwise. Imagine a tube of material being such that you can mold a perfectly round wooden member. Or imagine being able to create pretzel like configurations with wood in an effort to strengthen them and then mold them to your needs. Either way, ships would have a better HP value than ordinary construction would imply.

In low-tech shipbuilding in warm waters (and a good part of the navigable parts of Yrth are southerly), some of the big issues with long-term maintenance were worm attacks and leakage. Fusing large areas of wood together might reduce leakage, but it also might create a rigid hull which shattered rather than opening tiny fractures. Essential Wood cast on a SM 6-8 hull would probably make the wood resistant to the worms; if you allow Earth to Stone (Metal) that would also allow a cheap substitute for historical lead or copper plating (lead was not really hard enough, but it was cheap, so ancient shipbuilders used it). Another option would be to use Shape Earth to create a very thin layer of hard stone over the outside if your hull, with rivet holes pierced in it. It might be cheap enough to be worth updating the plates which shatter after a year or so.

Historical workers were perfectly capable of making round members ... they did it for masts, and it might not have been that much more work. Just create a form to test their work with adze and draw-knife.

Historically members were carefully chosen to take advantage of the grain and stress patterns in particular sections of timber. Shaped (with a capital S) wood might loose that, but if you can afford to cast Essential Wood on the finished ship, that may be enough to overcome the disadvantages.

[scc]

Originally Posted by CraigM

Dancing Object on a crankshaft gets you ST15 for 400 energy for 4/2 energy cost and one hour duration. It's another 1,000 energy if you want it self-powered (still needs two FP to initiate, though), plus 200 for Link if you want a gearbox.

At $33/EP standard enchanting rates, that's at least $13,400 and up to about $50,000 for a less than one horsepower motor. To drive anything bigger than a dinghy (or to get much speed in even the dinghy), you're going to need multiple enchantments, with no economy of scale except for the Link.

Enchanters need to be high magery and high skill; ship's wizards don't. And motion enchantments on screws or paddles convert magical energy into horsepower much less efficiently than wind magic and sails do.

Don't matter, I can only assume that the price to hire a mage costs $33 a day, so by the 3 year mark it's cheaper to buy the enchanted crankshaft. And I don't need a Link the the gearbox, that's mechanical workings

[CraigM]

Originally Posted by scc

Don't matter, I can only assume that the price to hire a mage costs $33 a day, so by the 3 year mark it's cheaper to buy the enchanted crankshaft. And I don't need a Link the the gearbox, that's mechanical workings

3 years gets you the ST-15 less than one horsepower version. To match the horsepower of a ship-sized square-rigger plus wind, you're looking at thousands of mage-years.

Link gets you the "gearbox" without having the tech to actually build one.

[CraigM]

Originally Posted by malloyd

But it's not a medieval style city. From the map in Tredroy it's an unwalled city 10 or 15 miles across. Of course that map scale also indicates it sits on a river wider than the Amazon, crossed by 4 bridges longer than anything built on Earth until 1936, but hey making ridiculous canon numbers is part of the game, right? Works for Traveller.

Given that canon has Council Island being created entirely by magic, the exceptionally long bridges don't bother me much.

It's just another example to showcase the obviously magical architecture of Tredroy...which includes the sorcerous incinerators in the sewage system that allow the population density without most of the unpleasantness of a medieval city of similar size. Although West Tredroy still tends to smell a bit agricultural...

But, yeah, the city map is long overdue for revision and refinement. Tredroy 4th Ed?

[hal]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

In low-tech shipbuilding in warm waters (and a good part of the navigable parts of Yrth are southerly), some of the big issues with long-term maintenance were worm attacks and leakage. Fusing large areas of wood together might reduce leakage, but it also might create a rigid hull which shattered rather than opening tiny fractures. Essential Wood cast on a SM 6-8 hull would probably make the wood resistant to the worms; if you allow Earth to Stone (Metal) that would also allow a cheap substitute for historical lead or copper plating (lead was not really hard enough, but it was cheap, so ancient shipbuilders used it). Another option would be to use Shape Earth to create a very thin layer of hard stone over the outside if your hull, with rivet holes pierced in it. It might be cheap enough to be worth updating the plates which shatter after a year or so.

Historical workers were perfectly capable of making round members ... they did it for masts, and it might not have been that much more work. Just create a form to test their work with adze and draw-knife.

Historically members were carefully chosen to take advantage of the grain and stress patterns in particular sections of timber. Shaped (with a capital S) wood might loose that, but if you can afford to cast Essential Wood on the finished ship, that may be enough to overcome the disadvantages.

The beams and knees themselves can be made stronger via sharp plant. Whereas normal wood with certain properties had to be made, shape plant for example, could create plywood like strengths where none existed before.
In addition, for 100 energy per because of hull, toredo worm issues can be negated providing the ship remains in waters that have mana. Their underlying spell would be repel animal (vermin).

One also has to wonder what effect shape plant might have on canvas production. Seamless sails could be created, with mending of tears a simple process.

[hal]

Alterative artillery: A mage who knows beast possession and has access to pebbles with link spells on them, can deliver attacks against hulls with relative impunity.

Alternative scouting: mages can utilize dolphins or sharks or even possess such marine animals for use as scouts. Predatory birds with keen eyesight could also be used to spot things such as a sailing rig past the normal limits of human eyesight.

Provisioning requirements with respect to water would be less of an issue with purify water hoops.

Next thing for me to look into is the process for pumping water out of the hull by means of magic