Mana

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I may not have experimented with that specific idea, but I have made hundreds of wizard characters, and recently made dozens of competitive arena wizards, and feel I'm pretty qualified to comment on the way it would impact choices for wizard designs. The original situation in Wizard has a nice trade off between the three attributes for 32-point wizards with no other source of mana but ST. If you switch mana to IQ, then ST is much more of a dump stat that it otherwise would be. A 32-point arena wizard point-buying ST rather than DX or IQ-which-is-also-mana to just get some more ability to suffer damage would be a very ineffective tactic.

Again, I don't actually see that as a problem -- I've actually played with this specific system in the past, and it worked quite well. Without any "dump stat" issues cropping up at all. And indeed, you still DO need ST in order to survive combat. Magic attacks against you (or physical ones, obviously) still do damage in the same old way. An 8 ST Wizard is a very vulnerable wizard, you know... ;-)

Originally Posted by Skarg

One of the main reasons I mention things here is to share what I see that I suspect many others won't unless I mention them.

You and I also frequently see TFT very differently, I've noticed, which is interesting and I hope I don't come across as looking for binary arguments. For example, I am quite interested what you mean about your perspective on ST vs DX for warriors with the new XP rules?

You know, once again I'm forced to acknowledge that I don't always express myself well. And if I gave you the impression that I thought your position on these things was "wrong" or anything, I sincerely want to apologize. I realize (and I hope you do too) that you are pointing out issues in my ideas -- just as I do with yours -- and my responses above were intended to try and answer those issues, not in any way attack of belittle your concerns or thoughts!

Another thing; based on HCobb's comment earlier about a Wizard who used too much Mana being a poor slime-spotter -- I should state unequivocally that my answer was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Honestly, I see Mana as a secondary "magical ability attribute" much like fatigue was before, only not as potentially confusing (as fatigue was, given that you had to track two different effects on your ST with all the extra complexity and confusion that that situation often created in the heat of battle). Basically spending Mana would in no way reduce your IQ to some "AdjIQ" number. Rather you would have just so many Mana points to expend before you "ran out of juice" and then had to either refrain from casting spells until you can re-charge, or make the decision that it's necessary to start absorbing actual wounds in order to save the day. Your IQ in itself, however, would remain unaffected. You would still know your talents and spells, speak your languages, and so on, but simply wouldn't have the ability to cast spells anymore (without potentially fatal consequences anyway).

Finally, on the matter of "re-charging" Mana, I would argue that rather than have a Mana point re-charge every 15 minutes, you could either lengthen the time component (1 Mana point per hour, for example), OR you could simply state that no Mana re-charges until, say, Midnight local time -- this would solve the oft-stated objection of Wizards having too much Mana available during the course of the day to use and becoming unstoppable killing machines; once again it becomes a resource management issue instead of an opportunity to skew the game effects. I would also point out that since the effects of AID Spells are transitory, they might not be the panacea that some folks think they would be -- and frankly, I'd rather have the other Wizards in my party making their own attacks rather than AIDing me to make one big attack.

Anyway, I hope you take my comments and responses as an attempt to discuss and address issues that have been raised or ideas that have been proposed, as opposed to an attempt to overbear your (or anyone else's) preferences, concepts, and play style! And, come to think of it, this is all highly hypothetical anyway, since I have no evidence that Steve or anyone else is actually considering revamping the magic system in any way! ;-)

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by JLV

Finally, on the matter of "re-charging" Mana, I would argue that rather than have a Mana point re-charge every 15 minutes, you could either lengthen the time component (1 Mana point per hour, for example), OR you could simply state that no Mana re-charges until, say, Midnight local time -- this would solve the oft-stated objection of Wizards having too much Mana available during the course of the day to use and becoming unstoppable killing machines; once again it becomes a resource management issue instead of an opportunity to skew the game effects. I would also point out that since the effects of AID Spells are transitory, they might not be the panacea that some folks think they would be -- and frankly, I'd rather have the other Wizards in my party making their own attacks rather than AIDing me to make one big attack.

Earlier, I mentioned the idea of mana recovering at the rate of 1 point per 15 minutes, just as fatigue does not, but without the necessity of resting. I suggested that idea as the mechanic is already built into the game. I thought it would simplify the concept and make it less of an issue. And the idea of having mana (or at least the ability to focus and use the mana) being equal to the wizards IQ, but separate from it, seems, on the face of it, to make a great deal of sense.

[warhorse11h]

One other thought, the ST damage brought about by using ST to power spells would be very resistant to any healing efforts. It isn't so much a wound to a specific part of the body, but instead, a generalized weakness to the full body. Draining the life force if you will. Physickers could try, but there's nothing to bandage or stitch up. The same for healers and their spells. No wound to actually heal, just a generalized weakness. The only fix is two days bed rest for each point of damage.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

One other thought, the ST damage brought about by using ST to power spells would be very resistant to any healing efforts. It isn't so much a wound to a specific part of the body, but instead, a generalized weakness to the full body. Draining the life force if you will. Physickers could try, but there's nothing to bandage or stitch up. The same for healers and their spells. No wound to actually heal, just a generalized weakness. The only fix is two days bed rest for each point of damage.

I've been reticent to jump in on this thread because suggestions to alter the balance of the 'holy trinity' makes my eye twitch, but I'm am definitely in agreement on this statement. The power to cast spells comes from the wizard's life force. In TFT, that is represented by ST, not IQ. Physicking is great for repairing wounds but it cannot replace life force.

For me, Mana is simply what ST is called when it exists outside of the wizard; in a staff, powerstone, or even distilled into a potion (new idea?).

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

One other thought, the ST damage brought about by using ST to power spells would be very resistant to any healing efforts. It isn't so much a wound to a specific part of the body, but instead, a generalized weakness to the full body. Draining the life force if you will. Physickers could try, but there's nothing to bandage or stitch up. The same for healers and their spells. No wound to actually heal, just a generalized weakness. The only fix is two days bed rest for each point of damage.

Remove ability of healing potions to cure fatigue?

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Remove ability of healing potions to cure fatigue?

Why not? You would just need to establish the existence of Mana potions (and rules for creating them) to compensate for that change. This doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me.

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Remove ability of healing potions to cure fatigue?

Sticking with the continuity of this thread, it was earlier postulated that using this idea, a wizard would use mana to cast his spells. Once he had depleted the available mana, he could, under duress, use his ST to cast spells. The reduction in ST would be damage to him, not fatigue. So, in this case, no healing of that type of generalized damage, except by bed rest.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by JLV

Again, I don't actually see that as a problem -- I've actually played with this specific system in the past, and it worked quite well. Without any "dump stat" issues cropping up at all. And indeed, you still DO need ST in order to survive combat. Magic attacks against you (or physical ones, obviously) still do damage in the same old way. An 8 ST Wizard is a very vulnerable wizard, you know... ;-)

I don't need ST to survive combat, if I avoid getting hurt, which is usually a major part of my strategy even when I'm a fighter, let alone a wizard.

Of course, you are correct that having more ST is better than having less ST, and that you certainly don't want your wizards to get wounded even if it didn't reduce their mana.

And it sounds like maybe you mean by not seeing it as a problem, that you can play a game with house rules like that and still have it be enjoyable and fun and have some players not notice that the balance has shifted a lot from the original game. If so, sure, I agree. TFT can be modded a lot before it becomes a problem if the bar is being not fun or severely obviously broken.

However it sounds like maybe I was mistaken to think you were disagreeing with what I meant to say. Which was, that this change greatly alters the balance of value of attributes for wizards, since ST no longer would determine mana, and wounds would no longer reduce their pool of available mana (unless using the part where you can opt to actually wound yourself to cast spells, but still it's a much reduced effect compared to original TFT).

Although a ST 8 wizard is quite vulnerable to attacks, so is any 32-point wizard standing where he can be attacked, especially (in original TFT, but much less so if mana comes from IQ) if he casts spells or if he needs to be able to cast more spells to survive an encounter.

All things being equal and TFT being a point-buy game, if you base mana on IQ, I'd say that pretty much any 32-point arena wizard design would be less effective than one who shifted points from ST to DX or IQ, because extra points in ST would just help you take wounds a little bit (even raising DX and then reducing it with cloth or leather armor would seem almost always a better choice than raising ST in that case).

Originally Posted by JLV

You know, once again I'm forced to acknowledge that I don't always express myself well. And if I gave you the impression that I thought your position on these things was "wrong" or anything, I sincerely want to apologize. I realize (and I hope you do too) that you are pointing out issues in my ideas -- just as I do with yours -- and my responses above were intended to try and answer those issues, not in any way attack of belittle your concerns or thoughts!

Thanks for writing so. Yes, I've often felt that I or others have written points that were very insightful and valuable, and you've simply commented that you don't see it as a problem, which I've often read as meaning you think they were wrong about what they said. If instead you meant that while they had a good point from their perspective, that there's plenty of room for other players to enjoy the game without ever noticing the issues they mentioned, then I'm sorry to have mis-read your intent many times.

Originally Posted by JLV

Basically spending Mana would in no way reduce your IQ to some "AdjIQ" number.

As a side-note, I've played another GM's (house-rule GURPS psionics) system whose spell-equivalents did cause mental fatigue which reduced your adjIQ that way, which was a pretty interesting and unusual mechanic, but certainly a house rule that has a big impact on play.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Remove ability of healing potions to cure fatigue?

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Why not? You would just need to establish the existence of Mana potions (and rules for creating them) to compensate for that change. This doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me.

I'd sort of forgotten that healing potions could do that. It's almost always such a huge waste to do so unless you are both unwounded and desperately need to recover some fatigue immediately.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Skarg

However it sounds like maybe I was mistaken to think you were disagreeing with what I meant to say. Which was, that this change greatly alters the balance of value of attributes for wizards, since ST no longer would determine mana, and wounds would no longer reduce their pool of available mana (unless using the part where you can opt to actually wound yourself to cast spells, but still it's a much reduced effect compared to original TFT).

This!

And there are a lot of other elements that would need to be addressed if you alter this core design assumption. How would the Aid spell work? Would Confusion reduce the wizard's available mana? Do we need new spells to target or defend one's mana reserve? What happens when mana hits zero? Will the use of XP to increase IQ automatically increase mana and if so, wouldn't the implied 40-point stat cap limit the wizard’s power potential?

Like I said... eye twitching.
;)