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Old 05-22-2020, 11:59 PM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

In many systems (D&D, L5R, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, etc.) people either know spells or they do not, they generally do not have prerequisites, and how skillfully they use spells depends on a separate skill. In GURPS, the magical systems are somewhat different, as the spell is usually a skill (or is a technique that defaults from a skill). In effect, GURPS uses specific expertise while most other systems use a more general expertise.

How could we design a system with more general experience in GURPS? The first step would be to determine the skill(s) associated with general extertise, such as Ritual Magic or Thaumatology. The second step would be determining the energy cost/margin of success/penalty specific to each spell. The third step would be determining the CP cost of each spell as an advantage. The fourth step would be changing Magery, as it is too expensive for a bonus to one skill, such as giving it aspects similar to Magery for RPM.

For example, you could take the default magical system of GURPS and transform it into a general expertise system. Thaumatology would be the skill associated with casting spells, no spell would require prerequisites, and each spell would cost 5 CP. The energy cost of the spells would be unchanged. Magicians could learn Thaumatology up to (Magery+12), would have an ER equal to (Magery×3), and could cast up to (Magery+Thaumatology) conditional spells.

What do you think? Would you want to try a system of general expertise rather than specific expertise? What changes do you think would improve it?

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 05-23-2020 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:02 AM   #2
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

So what's different between what you're looking for and sorcery or realm magic?
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Old 05-23-2020, 10:51 AM   #3
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

You could have a look at ritual magic.
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:24 AM   #4
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

Sorcery is expensive and complex. Realm magic is very much not 'you know it or you don't', as each level of realm magic gives you a broad range of capabilities. As for ritual magic, you still need a large number of skills (and techniques) to make it effective.

I was thinking that every H spell could be a 5 CP advantage while every VH spell would be a 10 CP spell. For example, a healing magician would pay 5 CP to gain Minor Healing and 10 CP to gain Major Healing. Their Thaumatology would determine their skill level with each spell, and their Magery would determine their maximum possible Thaumatology skill.

In the above system, it would be possible for mages to specialize by College through taking limited Magery and a specialization in Thaumatology. For example, a healing mage would have Magery (Healing Only, -40%) and Thaumatology (Healing). They would then only be capable of purchasing healing spells.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

Gurps spells are effectively different cost due to the prerequisites and that is a good thing as there is generally a difference in power depending on the depth prerequisite tree. Some spells do not fit this thing, but most do.

Comparing to D&D the spells with more prerequisites are "higher level spells"

So if you want to remove the prerequisites but stop everyone from just picking up the good spells cheap you should have some limiting factor.


In the standard system it is the requirement of having those intermediate spells. In D&D it is the requirement of having higher class level.

Thus two possible approaches that I see:
1) Base the cost of the spell on the number of prerequisite spells.
2) Base the magery requirement for the spell on the number of prerequisite spells.

For option one then something like 1 point+1/2 of prerequisite count would give a cost range of 1-16 points for a spell, with majority in 1-6 point range. Tweaking the numbers gives different results..

For option two then something like: Use current required magery+(prerequisite count/5) drop fractions would result in needed mageries of 0-9, with Transmogrification being the single 9 and most being in the 0-5 range. Again tweaking the numbers gives different results..
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

No, prerequisites don't really matter for balance. That's energy cost.
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
No, prerequisites don't really matter for balance. That's energy cost.
Then you do not want me in your low point games with magic without prerequisites if you think that. :)

Of course the energy costs are a major balancing factor, but so are prerequisites.

I cannot count the times I have looked at the prerequisite charts and thought "If I only had 5 more points to buy the prerequisites, I could get spell X". And then later have the huge number of spells that never get cast as they were just required to get the very good spell.

In many cases you also get a lot more/point of energy in quite many more advanced spells than you get for the basic spells.
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I was thinking that every H spell could be a 5 CP advantage while every VH spell would be a 10 CP spell. For example, a healing magician would pay 5 CP to gain Minor Healing and 10 CP to gain Major Healing. Their Thaumatology would determine their skill level with each spell, and their Magery would determine their maximum possible Thaumatology skill.
Anders' suggestion of Ritual Magic (Magic p. 200, not Ritual Path Magic) seems quite close to what you're after.

Inherent Magic from 3e (Compendium I, p. 38) may have elements you can swipe, too.
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Old 05-23-2020, 05:11 PM   #9
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

Ritual magic still requires a massive number of skill (there are 25 Colleges, so there would be 26 skills including the core skill, which is a prerequisite for the other skills). In addition, you still have to invest in specific techniques if you want a chance of using them.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: Spells as Advantages [Thaumatology]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Ritual magic still requires a massive number of skill (there are 25 Colleges, so there would be 26 skills including the core skill, which is a prerequisite for the other skills). In addition, you still have to invest in specific techniques if you want a chance of using them.
Consider using "From Skills to Advantages" by Sean Punch, from Pyramid 3/44: Alternate GURPS II. It talks about converting skills into advantages, which could then be used with Thaumatology instead of an IQ, HT, etc roll. I'm hesitant to give too many details as it might invalidate the usefulness of that article. Good luck.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, looking again, it has a side bar specifically devoted toward turning spells into advantages.

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Last edited by Jinumon; 05-24-2020 at 02:32 AM.
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