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Old 10-28-2019, 03:30 PM   #11
johndallman
 
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Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

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Originally Posted by Madd Kossack 115 View Post
Sorry for not getting to you in my other reply post, but I maxed out my character limit there -
No problem.
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Originally Posted by Madd Kossack 115 View Post
I'll take this moment to confess that I don't have a GM just yet, and I'm not even designing Dallin for an actual game
OK, that makes things clearer. I suggest you pick a point level and try to stick to it. Many of the iconic characters are 250 points or fairly close, and since all your characters seem to be humans, you don't have to worry about expensive racial templates. There's more guidance on picking point totals on p. 487 in the Basic Set.

Then sit down with the books, go through the lists, and draft a character. You'll go over budget - this always happens. Trimming down to budget is a good way to find out which ideas and features are fundamental to your concept, and which aren't. Then post the character and ask for critique.

One concept worth clarifying with Fairborne: is he a dedicated sniper, who doesn't do much else, or is he part of a combat team, and the first choice when long-range shooting is required? It makes a difference to skill and advantage choice, and a dedicated sniper normally operates as part of a two-man team of spotter and sniper.
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Old 10-28-2019, 03:41 PM   #12
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

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Originally Posted by Madd Kossack 115 View Post
Well, Lenin-2 is firmly in post-apocalyptic (again, it's after a MAD nuclear exchange reduced it to what Homeline has dubbed a "Hell Parallel"), although since Xing La wasn't written with this supplement in mind, I think it's possible to design the character without using it. However, looking up what I can on the free preview, I think the closest classes that Dallin would fit (based on names, since their specific skillsets weren't shown) would be Hunter, Nomad, or Trooper, with Hunter the closest in combat, and Nomad the closest with stealth skills.
The reason I mentioned it was rather close to the apocalypse is that AtE assumes at least 2 generations (~40-50 years) after the apocalypse, typically much more, and Lenin-2 sounds like it hasn't been that long yet.

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Originally Posted by Madd Kossack 115 View Post
I wasn't basing Dallin off the historical W.E. "Dan" Fairbairn, but the fictional Karl Fairburne (although his wiki page does say he may have drawn inspiration from the other Fairbairn, the most notable difference is that he's an American of German descent, not British). That said, I have found a video demonstrating Karl Fairburne's "melee takedowns" in Sniper 4, and I was wondering if this could be considered a decent representation of Dan Fairbairn's style - namely, taking an unaware sentry, and ending him as quickly and brutally as possible? Because I'm only making Dallin's melee skills secondary to both sniping and stealth (i.e. it's what happens if he's caught, and either needs to silence an individual guard before he raises an alarm, or fight his way past a pack of melee fighters who've closed the distance before they rip him to shreds - I'd actually borrow somewhat from the Mad Max game for examples of the later scenario)
Y'know, I've actually played Sniper Elite 4, but never really noticed the character's name. Huh. Anyway, if you were using Martial Arts (where styles originated), I'd probably suggest MCMAP for Dallin, but since I assume you aren't, for melee I'd say Brawling, Knife, and Judo. Ranged you'll primarily want Guns (Rifle), and can probably rely on the default from that for using most other firearms. For skill level, I suggest reading this informative article. Gunslinger isn't really appropriate for a sniper, so I'd suggest against that. Tactical Shooting would be a great supplement for you, as well as High Tech for the weapons, but that again is additional cost. High Tech has Karl's signature Springfield M1903, and I think most of the other weapons for SE4, although your character may use something a bit more modern. In any case, the TL6 Bolt-Action Rifle from Basic Set: Characters works well enough stats-wise.

Looking at the Mad Max gameplay, it looks to play similarly to the Arkham series and Shadow of Mordor/Shadow of War. That's not really a method of fighting someone can manage with melee combat as a secondary skill (or if it is, that character's "secondary skills" are master-level). The characters in such games have exceptionally high Parry and make heavy use of the Counterattack Technique from Martial Arts, as well as a good deal of Rapid Strikes, and you really can't pull that off without a high skill level.
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Old 10-28-2019, 05:48 PM   #13
Madd Kossack 115
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
One concept worth clarifying with Fairborne: is he a dedicated sniper, who doesn't do much else, or is he part of a combat team, and the first choice when long-range shooting is required? It makes a difference to skill and advantage choice, and a dedicated sniper normally operates as part of a two-man team of spotter and sniper.
For the Fairborne video game character, he's a "solo operative behind enemy lines" sort of deal, especially with Sniper V2, where he has to go deep into German (and eventually Soviet) territory to assassinate lead scientists and sabotage critical infrastructure. That probably makes him close to "a dedicated sniper who doesn't do much else", except he also has skills in demolitions (whether shooting gas lines and grenades, or setting up land mines for ambushes), stealthy melee/silenced pistol kills, and even a SMG (either a Thompson, or stolen PPSH or MP-40), but mostly when everything goes completely **** up, and he has to spray and pray against a horde of Wehrmacht or Red Army bum-rushing him.

But for MY character (Dallin Graham), he wasn't a military trained sniper, but started out basically with his native village's militia (i.e. banding together to keep "the crazies" away from what little they had in food stocks), and (thanks to a Fallout-esque "go here to find something for our village before we all die" mission) he had to learn the hard way about hunting and fighting out in the wasteland by himself. Basically, think the various Fallout protagonists (Vault Dweller, Chosen One, Lone Wanderer, Courier, etc.), and that even with an occasional companion, Dallin had to do most of the proverbial (and sometimes literal) lifting himself.

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The reason I mentioned it was rather close to the apocalypse is that AtE assumes at least 2 generations (~40-50 years) after the apocalypse, typically much more, and Lenin-2 sounds like it hasn't been that long yet.
I double-checked, and it turns out the "current year" for that world is 2021, with the nukes having been launched in 2000. On the other hand, most other "civilizations" regressing to T3 tech may have expedited the process of "going tribal", so for all we know, those roles may still apply (outside of China, which is clinging to whatever scraps of pre-war society it has left).

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Anyway, if you were using Martial Arts (where styles originated), I'd probably suggest MCMAP for Dallin, but since I assume you aren't, for melee I'd say Brawling, Knife, and Judo. Ranged you'll primarily want Guns (Rifle), and can probably rely on the default from that for using most other firearms. For skill level, I suggest reading this informative article. Gunslinger isn't really appropriate for a sniper, so I'd suggest against that. Tactical Shooting would be a great supplement for you, as well as High Tech for the weapons, but that again is additional cost. High Tech has Karl's signature Springfield M1903, and I think most of the other weapons for SE4, although your character may use something a bit more modern. In any case, the TL6 Bolt-Action Rifle from Basic Set: Characters works well enough stats-wise.
All good info! I am going to have Dallin's rifle be an "Ace Custom" (specifically a "personalized weapon"), with the explanation being that he personally tweaked and improved his original gun over a few bleak years of survival, or snatched a high-quality rifle from a Three Spheres armory that he treats as his personal pride and joy. I'd also think he'd give it a name (current name I've got for it is "Longinus").

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Looking at the Mad Max gameplay, it looks to play similarly to the Arkham series and Shadow of Mordor/Shadow of War. That's not really a method of fighting someone can manage with melee combat as a secondary skill (or if it is, that character's "secondary skills" are master-level). The characters in such games have exceptionally high Parry and make heavy use of the Counterattack Technique from Martial Arts, as well as a good deal of Rapid Strikes, and you really can't pull that off without a high skill level.
I think I should have clarified, in that I think that my idea of "master level martial arts" is something akin to the Yakuza series (where one dude can take on over a dozen dudes at once, with his punches sending two to three flying across the room at a time, to say nothing of the "Heat Explosions"), or like Fist Of The North Star (where a single hero can reduce entire armies to pulp with chi-infused karate chops).

The Mad Max game by comparison has Max fighting five guys at once TOPS, and having that be a desperate struggle (especially when the player flubs their parries, or doesn't dodge an unblockable attack, and gets smacked by somebody midway through fighting somebody else). I guess a better analogy would be that Dallin in a multi-man brawl (again, something he doesn't actively seek out, but has learned from "the school of hard knocks" to prepare for) would be like if Mad Max didn't have a "Fury Mode" to turn the tables, and the enemies didn't have glowing "press X to parry" or "This is gonna be an unblockable charge, look out!" icons popping over their heads
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Old 10-28-2019, 06:37 PM   #14
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

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Originally Posted by Madd Kossack 115 View Post
I was wondering if this could be considered a decent representation of Dan Fairbairn's style - namely, taking an unaware sentry, and ending him as quickly and brutally as possible?



I'd think that Tactical Shooting is the closest bet for me, as Dallin isn't exactly a "trick shooter" outside of his sniper rifle, with the fanciest "tricks" it does (besides targeting vital organs) being shooting through 2 to 3 enemies in line of a bullet's path, or shooting environmental objects that cause more damage than a bullet alone (vehicle gas caps and fuel lines, grenades still attached to a soldier's belt, winches that can drop a pallet of crates on a poor sap's head, etc.). If there's an "I never miss my aim" style, that's probably the one I'll take.
Sentry removal is a key element of the Fairburn-based WWII commando Style from Martial arts. Without getting heavily into Styles you'd want Stealth, Knife and the Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust-Neck) Technique for Knife.

Come to think of it Martial Arts is where Targeted Attacks are first spelled out. The short version is that they are Hard Techniques as explained in Basic where you can buy off half (round up) of the To Hit Penalty for attackign a specific body part. You'd buy off 3 pts of the -5 pt for attacking the Neck with a Knife and 4 of the -7 for Guns(Rifle) to the Skull.

Your examples of sniper tricks are Cinematic by Gurps standards. Tactical shooting would be for people who are formally trained Military or SWAT team snipers and who don't do anything with their rifles except put holes in people.

Building a special sniper rifle from a video game is pretty advanced stuff and not a thing I would do at start. The TL8 Sniper Rifle in Basic is quite a good one.

One thing that might not be totally obvious is that jsut because you use multiple types of Guns you don't have to buy multiple Guns skills. The part about "Defaulting at -2" means that if you put aot of pts into Guns (Rifle) your skill in Guns (Pistol) and so on is never worse than 2 pts lower than your Skill in Rifle.
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Old 10-28-2019, 07:37 PM   #15
Madd Kossack 115
 
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Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

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Sentry removal is a key element of the Fairburn-based WWII commando Style from Martial arts. Without getting heavily into Styles you'd want Stealth, Knife and the Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust-Neck) Technique for Knife.

Come to think of it Martial Arts is where Targeted Attacks are first spelled out. The short version is that they are Hard Techniques as explained in Basic where you can buy off half (round up) of the To Hit Penalty for attacking a specific body part. You'd buy off 3 pts of the -5 pt for attacking the Neck with a Knife and 4 of the -7 for Guns(Rifle) to the Skull.
That all makes sense to me. I did consider having Dallin also be skilled with a hatchet (as something he picked up from some Tribals he met during his travels), but I can set that aside as a maybe while I work on everything else.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Your examples of sniper tricks are Cinematic by Gurps standards. Tactical shooting would be for people who are formally trained Military or SWAT team snipers and who don't do anything with their rifles except put holes in people.
Well, where I'm going with this story, I may end up going for a Cinematic campaign after all. If that's the case, of the "Styles" you listed earlier (Army of One and Ultimate Shootist), which one is more limited to "Improbable Aiming Skills"?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Building a special sniper rifle from a video game is pretty advanced stuff and not a thing I would do at start. The TL8 Sniper Rifle in Basic is quite a good one.
I was actually planning on using the GURPS Weapons Wiki as a source (either the USA Weapons of World War 2, or the Rifles of World War 3 sections. I guess I'd pick out which of the New Vegas unique rifles would best fit Dallin's character, then figure out which rifle it would best fit from the list (although based on the looks of some of the Wild West-inspired ones, I'm starting to think I may need the Rifles of World War 1 or even Rifles of the Old West sections if I end up choosing them).

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
One thing that might not be totally obvious is that just because you use multiple types of Guns you don't have to buy multiple Guns skills. The part about "Defaulting at -2" means that if you put a lot of pts into Guns (Rifle) your skill in Guns (Pistol) and so on is never worse than 2 pts lower than your Skill in Rifle.
Thanks for the tip! These "other gun skills are 'just' -2 from the primary skill" rules do help with adapting Karl Fairburne's style in particular, in that he's a master with a sniper rifle, and "only mostly good" with his pistol and SMG, with the later two being used for more situational encounters.
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:46 PM   #16
Varyon
 
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Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

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Originally Posted by Madd Kossack 115 View Post
All good info! I am going to have Dallin's rifle be an "Ace Custom" (specifically a "personalized weapon"), with the explanation being that he personally tweaked and improved his original gun over a few bleak years of survival, or snatched a high-quality rifle from a Three Spheres armory that he treats as his personal pride and joy. I'd also think he'd give it a name (current name I've got for it is "Longinus").
Realistically, this is probably a weapon that is Fine (Accurate) and Fine (Reliable) (both HT79), giving +1 each to Acc and Malf, and may also have had excess weight removed (TS70) and various components refitted specifically for Dallin (to justify Weapon Bond, although that isn't strictly necessary - sometimes you just find a weapon that clicks). A barrel with a threaded section to attach a silencer may also be useful. More cinematically, boost that to Very Fine (Accurate) and Very Fine (Reliable), for +2 to each of Acc and Malf, and have the barrel designed to have an integral silencer component to it. Note the rules for silencers are in High Tech, although if you're going highly cinematic you could probably just say silencers work like they do in the movies.

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Originally Posted by Madd Kossack 115 View Post
I think I should have clarified, in that I think that my idea of "master level martial arts" is something akin to the Yakuza series (where one dude can take on over a dozen dudes at once, with his punches sending two to three flying across the room at a time, to say nothing of the "Heat Explosions"), or like Fist Of The North Star (where a single hero can reduce entire armies to pulp with chi-infused karate chops).

The Mad Max game by comparison has Max fighting five guys at once TOPS, and having that be a desperate struggle (especially when the player flubs their parries, or doesn't dodge an unblockable attack, and gets smacked by somebody midway through fighting somebody else). I guess a better analogy would be that Dallin in a multi-man brawl (again, something he doesn't actively seek out, but has learned from "the school of hard knocks" to prepare for) would be like if Mad Max didn't have a "Fury Mode" to turn the tables, and the enemies didn't have glowing "press X to parry" or "This is gonna be an unblockable charge, look out!" icons popping over their heads
Actually fighting more than one, maybe two if they're poorly coordinated (and/or you can keep them from coming at you at the same time), opponent at a time requires a great deal of skill. I haven't played the Mad Max game, but for similar games I have played, you'd probably need something like skill 16+, maxed out Counterattack Technique, and at least Peripheral Vision, if not 360-Degree Vision. Trained By a Master is probably also necessary, so your Parries don't degrade too rapidly (and so you can hit multiple times in a second, if needed). From the gameplay video of Yakuza, the main character clearly has higher skill and Trained By a Master, and may also have some low-key superpowers on top of that. Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star most certainly has superpowers.

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Well, where I'm going with this story, I may end up going for a Cinematic campaign after all. If that's the case, of the "Styles" you listed earlier (Army of One and Ultimate Shootist), which one is more limited to "Improbable Aiming Skills"?
I can't really speak to Gun Fu (don't have that book), but any cinematic sniper worth his scope is likely to have Zen Marksmanship (basically Zen Archery, but for firearms instead of bows). That's a pretty good fit for the breath-control mechanic of Sniper Elite 4, honestly, and you can probably justify having Breath Control stand in for Meditation as a prerequisite. That, alongside high skill, will handle a lot of the "hard target" shots (like shooting a carried grenade). For ricochet shots, or shots that go through multiple targets reliably (as opposed to the occasional fluke), you probably need Power Ups 1: Imbuements.
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:59 PM   #17
Fred Brackin
 
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If that's the case, of the "Styles" you listed earlier (Army of One and Ultimate Shootist), which one is more limited to "Improbable Aiming Skills"?
Now i have time to folow soem of your links and I can tell you that your Improbable Aiming Skills are mostly things you do by buying Perks at a rate of one Perk per feat.

The very long range shooting thpough would take you to the Cinematic Skill of Zen Marksmanship which is simply Basic's Zen Archery usable with guns. The prerequisite is Gunslinger.

From what you've said I think Gun Fu's Sniper Style actually would be what you wanted. Army of One is for Rambo and many Shwarzenegger characters who have big guns and lots of them and are followed by large explosion where ever they go. Ultimate Shootist is for James Bond and Jason Bourne ypes who are very fast and very deadly with any weapon that comes to ahnd but not spcialized in the long range stuff like the Sniper.
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:26 PM   #18
Madd Kossack 115
 
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Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

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Realistically, this is probably a weapon that is Fine (Accurate) and Fine (Reliable) (both HT79), giving +1 each to Acc and Malf, and may also have had excess weight removed (TS70) and various components refitted specifically for Dallin (to justify Weapon Bond, although that isn't strictly necessary - sometimes you just find a weapon that clicks). A barrel with a threaded section to attach a silencer may also be useful. More cinematically, boost that to Very Fine (Accurate) and Very Fine (Reliable), for +2 to each of Acc and Malf, and have the barrel designed to have an integral silencer component to it. Note the rules for silencers are in High Tech, although if you're going highly cinematic you could probably just say silencers work like they do in the movies.
Thanks for all of this info! I am using the GURPS Weapons Wiki, but adjusting the values from whatever rifle I end up choosing to match your recommendations will work just fine!

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Actually fighting more than one, maybe two if they're poorly coordinated (and/or you can keep them from coming at you at the same time), opponent at a time requires a great deal of skill. I haven't played the Mad Max game, but for similar games I have played, you'd probably need something like skill 16+, maxed out Counterattack Technique, and at least Peripheral Vision, if not 360-Degree Vision. Trained By a Master is probably also necessary, so your Parries don't degrade too rapidly (and so you can hit multiple times in a second, if needed). From the gameplay video of Yakuza, the main character clearly has higher skill and Trained By a Master, and may also have some low-key superpowers on top of that. Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star most certainly has superpowers.
Yeah, I should've remembered Kenshiro would be considered a full-on superhero in our world, and should've just stuck to the Yakuza series for reference of what I considered "high end martial arts skills". The fact that low-end martial arts only helps against one to two opponents tops is a bit of a let-down, although I guess that means the solution to, say, a half-dozen charging Ferals shrieking for blood is letting fly with the Tommy Gun (which, for the record, may or may not become an AH later replacement model with a higher tech level and slightly better stats as a result, i.e. an AK-74 compared to an AK-47)

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I can't really speak to Gun Fu (don't have that book), but any cinematic sniper worth his scope is likely to have Zen Marksmanship (basically Zen Archery, but for firearms instead of bows). That's a pretty good fit for the breath-control mechanic of Sniper Elite 4, honestly, and you can probably justify having Breath Control stand in for Meditation as a prerequisite. That, alongside high skill, will handle a lot of the "hard target" shots (like shooting a carried grenade). For ricochet shots, or shots that go through multiple targets reliably (as opposed to the occasional fluke), you probably need Power Ups 1: Imbuements.
Besides being the picky sort who has to point out the "Breath Control" mechanic was a staple of the Sniper Elite series, all the way back to the very first game, that is a very cool way to write that ability in! I don't think I'll be doing any ricochet shots (the Sniper Elite series doesn't), but do Imbuements need to be used for punching through 2 to 3 infantry lined up in the bullet's projection, or can that be (slightly) more likely with Armor Piercing ammunition plus Zen Marksmanship?
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:47 PM   #19
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

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t do Imbuements need to be used for punching through 2 to 3 infantry lined up in the bullet's projection, or can that be (slightly) more likely with Armor Piercing ammunition plus Zen Marksmanship?
Bullets going thrugh one person and then hitting another is _normal_ for Gurps. It's just that after the first "blowthrough" the hit chance is a 9 or less for anyone in the right hex. Those are the odds Gurps uses for random events like unaimed bullets.

You want to be exempt from that rule so what you want is in the general category of a Rules Exemption Perk. You'd want to buy it twice to be able to hit 3 ina row. More would probably require soemthign like a.50 BMG. The average human body takes 10 HP off of a bullet that blows throught it but you can turn that 10 HP into 30 by htting the Vitals and tripling the damage.

The full write-up with correct nomenclature is probably something like Rules Exemption PerK: Aimable Blowthrough * with the asterisk meaning you must specialize by Skill or even Weapon. There would also be a "dagger" mark menaing that multiple levels are possible. If it went into a published book it might get a catchy name like "Line em Up!".
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:48 PM   #20
dcarson
 
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Default Re: A Request For Help On Characters (Plus Lenin-2 Expansion Ideas)

For how well you shoot with a rifle things like skill 16, rifle with ACC 5, ACC +2 scope, ACC +2 Very Fine(Accuracy), Weapon Bond +1, two extra rounds of aiming +2, the Deadeye perk that lets you do expended aiming without special tools so you can do +7 with a minute and a half of aiming instead of the usual +2 I listed you get a total skill of 31. This means even with -15 at 700 yards you have a 16 for a 98% chance of hitting. With a pistol and no time to aim you are at a 14 so 90% chance to hit at point blank range and 50/50 at 10 yards.
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