Calculating skill level-am I reading it right?

[Tever]

GURPS newbie here. I just picked up 4E, and I've read the section on buying skills like a dozen times now. I'm here from D&D 3.5, so it kind of threw me for a loop. At first, I thought you started from the default level, and then each level over that was X number of points based on difficulty. But then I found a preview of GURPS for Dummies online, and while I still couldn't quite make sense of what it was telling me, I did get that I was doing it wrong. So I went back and read over the section on buying skills, and I think I got it this time?

(I was going to quote the Skill Cost Table here, but I couldn't get it to format correctly. You all probably know this stuff by heart by now, anyway, but just in case, it's at the bottom of page 170.)

I'm looking at Acrobatics for my example. Now, Acrobatics is DX/Hard. My DX is 10. I think what this means is that, for 4 points, I can have a skill level of 10. For a single point, I can have skill level 8. I'm not sure what dashes mean; I assume your ability is so negligible as to be 0 points.

In addition to this, Acrobatics has a specialty for Aquabatics if I get the prerequisite. Does this mean that Aquabatics also has a skill level of 10, or do I pay another 4 points for that?

Thanks in advance.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Tever

I'm looking at Acrobatics for my example. Now, Acrobatics is DX/Hard. My DX is 10. I think what this means is that, for 4 points, I can have a skill level of 10. For a single point, I can have skill level 8. I'm not sure what dashes mean; I assume your ability is so negligible as to be 0 points.

In addition to this, Acrobatics has a specialty for Aquabatics if I get the prerequisite. Does this mean that Aquabatics also has a skill level of 10, or do I pay another 4 points for that?

Thanks in advance.

1 point for skill 8. 4 points for skill 10. Dash means you cannot get that skill level, thus you remain at default.

Aquabatics is a skill on its own and you'd have to pay points to get it.

[SuedodeuS]

The dashes are basically "not available." You can't spend less than 1 point on a skill, so you can't buy lower than the level associated with that. You are indeed interpreting the chart correctly in terms of Acrobatics. As for Aquabatics (and Aerobatics for that matter), all of the -batics are essentially seperate skills that default to one another at -4. So, if you have Acrobatics at 10, you automatically have Aerobatics and Aquabatics (provided you qualify for them) at 6.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

The dashes are basically "not available." You can't spend less than 1 point on a skill, so you can't buy lower than the level associated with that. You are indeed interpreting the chart correctly in terms of Acrobatics. As for Aquabatics (and Aerobatics for that matter), all of the -batics are essentially seperate skills that default to one another at -4. So, if you have Acrobatics at 10, you automatically have Aerobatics and Aquabatics (provided you qualify for them) at 6.

One of the peculiarities of the presentation of GURPS is that you often have a group of related skills that share a name, but are not the same skill; for example, Mathematics (Pure), Mathematics (Applied), and Mathematics (Statistics). The rules are much the same, the difficulty level is the same, and it makes sense to look at them as variants on the same idea. But knowing one of them doesn't give you equal skill in the others, though often it gives you a default (or a better default). The GURPS word for this situation is "required specializations." If you think of them as different but related skills that are all under the same entry, it will make better sense.

Bill Stoddard

[Nemi3e]

Hmm...You're reading it oddly. GURPS doesn't grade any more finely than half a point, but I know plenty of people on this board allow for quarter or even eighths of points.

Rather than being negligible ability, the dashes indicate negligible training. Doing something without training means you use the skill at default.

Acrobatics defaults to DX-6, but for half a point you go up to DX-3. This if the difference between a kid tumbling and jumping in their yard, and one after a lesson from a traveling jougelure. Or in a personal case, the difference between my amateur massages before and after my first class at the Swedish Institute. Essentially, the basics are easy to grasp.


Or, as I put it to my DnD converts, you know that +4 bonus to skills you get when your stat is 20, and how you only get +3 for 19 and 18? That happens all the time in GURPS, your stat goes up, your skill goes up.

So lets say your DX 10 character puts those 4 points into Acrobatics so you have a skill level of 10. Now then, later on you have a lot of DX based skills, and it's just cheaper to level up your DX than it is to do all those skills. So you pour your points into you DX.

Without putting any more points into Acrobatics you have a skill of 11, DX-0

As to the specialty, well, I still use 3E, but it's very cross compatible so I'm probably not wrong. Specialization gives you a +5 to the specialty and a -1 to outside your specialty. Here's an example:

Let's say you're in college and you're a biochem major. Obviously, you need research if you're going to write those papers for class.

Research is a Mental/Average skill, so, an IQ of 10, you drop 6 points into it and have a research skill of 12.

But, hey, most of your papers are going to be about chemistry, and specializing is free. So, obviously you specialize in chemistry research (Or, if you can finagle it out of your GM, science research). Boom, all of a sudden your research skill for those annoying papers 16, wowza!

Alas, for those annoying history papers for the C.H.T.H.U.L.U. department, your research skill level is a measly 11.

You really need to get your grade up in temporal engineering so you have the time to do all this crazy homework.

EDIT: apparently it specialization IS different in 4E, my bad

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Nemi3e

Hmm...You're reading it oddly. GURPS doesn't grade any more finely than half a point, but I know plenty of people on this board allow for quarter or even eighths of points.

Unfortunately, 4e did away with half points.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Nemi3e

Hmm...You're reading it oddly. GURPS doesn't grade any more finely than half a point, but I know plenty of people on this board allow for quarter or even eighths of points.

Not in 4e it doesn't. There are no 1/2 points or 1/4 points or anything else, and I have never met anyone who uses that in 4e.

In 4e there are only whole poins.


In 3e there were ½-points.

[Tever]

Originally Posted by copeab

Unfortunately, 4e did away with half points.

Actually, I'm kind of glad about that. I'm a little discalcic, and I think half points would just completely blow my mind.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Nemi3e

As to the specialty, well, I still use 3E, but it's very cross compatible so I'm probably not wrong. Specialization gives you a +5 to the specialty and a -1 to outside your specialty.

Not any more. It works differently. Say that I have IQ 14. I can put 4 points into Economics (a Hard skill) and get Economics-14. Or I can put 4 points into Economics (International Trade). That's an optional specialization, so it's one level simpler: Average rather than hard. My 4 points get me Economics (International Trade)-15. All other optional specializations default to it at -2, so I have Economics-13 outside my specialty. In effect, it's +1 and -1.

Let's say you're in college and you're a biochem major. Obviously, you need research if you're going to write those papers for class.

Research is a Mental/Average skill, so, an IQ of 10, you drop 6 points into it and have a research skill of 12.

But, hey, most of your papers are going to be about chemistry, and specializing is free. So, obviously you specialize in chemistry research (Or, if you can finagle it out of your GM, science research). Boom, all of a sudden your research skill for those annoying papers 16, wowza!

Not a well chosen example, unfortunately, as learning any science or humanity automatically gives you Research skill in that particular field. So taking Research (Chemistry) would be a waste of time. Oh, maybe if you wanted to be a librarian for a chemical research firm, and know a whole lot about the literature, but have only a basic understanding of chemistry. . . .

Bill Stoddard

[Mgellis]

Originally Posted by Tever

GURPS newbie here. I just picked up 4E, and I've read the section on buying skills like a dozen times now. I'm here from D&D 3.5, so it kind of threw me for a loop. At first, I thought you started from the default level, and then each level over that was X number of points based on difficulty. But then I found a preview of GURPS for Dummies online, and while I still couldn't quite make sense of what it was telling me, I did get that I was doing it wrong. So I went back and read over the section on buying skills, and I think I got it this time?

(I was going to quote the Skill Cost Table here, but I couldn't get it to format correctly. You all probably know this stuff by heart by now, anyway, but just in case, it's at the bottom of page 170.)

I'm looking at Acrobatics for my example. Now, Acrobatics is DX/Hard. My DX is 10. I think what this means is that, for 4 points, I can have a skill level of 10. For a single point, I can have skill level 8. I'm not sure what dashes mean; I assume your ability is so negligible as to be 0 points.

In addition to this, Acrobatics has a specialty for Aquabatics if I get the prerequisite. Does this mean that Aquabatics also has a skill level of 10, or do I pay another 4 points for that?

Thanks in advance.

1. Welcome to the forums. Please keep posting questions. It's a good group here.

2. Your examples are right. If you have DX 10, then Acrobatics-8 [1] or Acrobatics-10 [4] would be right. Or, rather, it would be Acrobatics-8 (DX-2) [4]. Or Acrobatics (DX-2) [1]-8.

3. The complete format for skill use, while "comprehensive" can be confusing because it provides so much information. For example, Acrobatics-8 (DX-2) [1] means...[Takes deep breath]..."The character has spent one point (the number in brackets) on Acrobatics and has the skill at 'base characteristic minus 2.' Since characters usually use DX for Acrobatics, and it is a Hard skill, we record that as "DX-2." The character has DX 10, so this means the character will usually roll against 8-, plus or minus any modifiers. The reason we record the DX-2 is that there might be some task that depends more on, say, endurance rather than agility, so we would want to roll vs. HT-2. The modifier (-2) will remain the same, because the character only spent one point on the skill. Mind you, about 98% of the time, you will just use DX, but you have all the information you need for special tasks, too!"

In other words, the long format lets you use skills more realistically and/or with more granularity.

Normally, I just use the short format (Skill-level [cost]). I have almost never had to use one of the special cases where you roll against anything besides the default characteristic.

4. The main thing when figuring what a certain number of points gets you with a skill is to look for...

A: Skill Type (Easy, Average, Hard, etc.)
B: Default Characteristic (DX, IQ, etc.)
C: The Character's Level with the Characteristic (9, 10, 11, etc.)

Then it's just a matter of plugging in the numbers, using the chart on page 170. For example, if you have IQ 11 and you want to buy an Average skill based off IQ, like Mechanic (Automobile), 1 point will get you the skill at IQ-1 or 10-, 2 points will get you the skill at IQ or 11-, 4 points will get you the skill at IQ+1 or 12-, 8 points will get you the skill at IQ+2 or 13-, and so on.

That chart is your friend. Learn it well. The little dashes on the chart mean you cannot buy the skill at that low a level level...spending even one point will get you the skill at a higher level.

Keep in mind that some skills are just the skill (e.g., Diplomacy) and others are a spectrum of skills (e.g., Mechanic, Electronics Operation, Artillery, Hidden Lore, etc.) and you have to buy each specialty separately.

I hope this helps.

Mark