[g4e] Using Size and Weight to Your Advantage

[Stripe]

Rules-as-written, if a SM+1, 800-pound troll/ogre/humanoid with ST22, DX 10 and Brawling-12 and a ST 12, DX 12, Brawling-12, 175-pound human get into a fist fight in a table-top flat, infinite plain, does the monster have much of an advantage other than pure punching and kicking damage for higher ST? If so, how can he use his size to his advantage in GURPS rules?

I mean, in real life, if an average-sized yet tough street fighter who was a high school wrestler and Golden Gloves boxer got into a fight with Andre the Giant, I would think that Andre's pure size (~7'4", 500 lbs or so, IIRC) would make him the winner basically every time, except for maybe the possibility of a single knockout punch; a "striker's chance."

It doesn't seem that GURPS rules places as much favoritism on much larger fighters as has been my experience. If you have a guy who can fight fighting another guy who can fight, and one's way bigger than the other, I just don't see the much smaller fighter winning very often at all, not counting luck as a major influence.

[sir_pudding]

The SM+1 fighter can make Reach C attacks at 1 hex (Basic 402).
The effects of Combat at Different Levels tend to benefit the taller fighter.

[LynGrey]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Rules-as-written, if a SM+1, 800-pound troll/ogre/humanoid with ST22, DX 10 and Brawling-12 and a ST 12, DX 12, Brawling-12, 175-pound human get into a fist fight in a table-top flat, infinite plain, does the monster have much of an advantage other than pure punching and kicking damage for higher ST? If so, how can he use his size to his advantage in GURPS rules?

I mean, in real life, if an average-sized yet tough street fighter who was a high school wrestler and Golden Gloves boxer got into a fight with Andre the Giant, I would think that Andre's pure size (~7'4", 500 lbs or so, IIRC) would make him the winner basically every time, except for maybe the possibility of a single knockout punch; a "striker's chance."

It doesn't seem that GURPS rules places as much favoritism on much larger fighters as has been my experience. If you have a guy who can fight fighting another guy who can fight, and one's way bigger than the other, I just don't see the much smaller fighter winning very often at all, not counting luck as a major influence.

Well size doesn't really matter that much. I can make an argument in every case of fighthing.

Boxing : The bigger heavier fighter is slower but has longer reach and more weight behind his punch. The smaller guy, is quick allowing him to pick his shots and being more elusive than the bigger guy.

Wresling: The bigger guy gots more weight and size to this advantage, but with his size he gives up more space to the smaller guy who can make certain escapes a bigger guy can do.

Most eastern arts (Judo, aikido)or eastern influenced arts (BJJ, Krav) are .
specifically made for the smaller guy and focus at using size agianst them.

[Kromm]

Make sure that ST is at least the bare minimum for height (ST 13 at 7'4" or ST 15 at 9') and weight (ST 16 at 500 lbs. or ST 19 at 800 lbs.). Remember that anybody you'd describe as a larger fighter will have the same ST bump as any other fighter; if you're giving the smaller guy ST 12, or +20%, then do the same for the big guy (so ST 20 at 500 lbs. or ST 23 at 800 lbs.). Now note two things:

Grappling. If the big guy grapples the small guy, the small guy is done, because he can't break free and most of the terrible things that happen after a grapple are Contests of ST, notably Neck Snap, but also good old pins. If the small guy grapples the big guy, the big guy can break free without effort, so the best the small guy can do is harrass the big guy with constant grapples that the big guy brushes off. If the big guy has twice the small guy's ST, he doesn't even need to bother breaking free; he can just lug the small guy around (p. B370).

Striking. The big guy has more HP, which increase with ST, and does more damage, which increases with ST. For the ST 12 vs. ST 23 case, we're looking at 1d-1 damage rolled against 23 HP vs. 2d+1 damage rolled against 12 HP. That's roughly 6:1 odds in favor of the big guy.

Also note that if the big guy has a +1 SM advantage, he gets a further +3 to pin (p. B370), can bear hug (p. B371), and can punch at Reach 1 (p. B402).

Martial Arts offers further unpleasantly harsh things for a high-ST or high-SM attacker to do, notably locks and holds the greatly leverage high ST into damage (Wrench Spine is especially brutal). Since most of these can be resisted with the better of ST or HT, the small guy can't return the favor effectively. That book also notes that SM advantages make bites scarier.

However, most of this hinges on assessing suitable ST and HP to go with great mass. The most common error I see is people creating "giants" with ST 14 and being miffed that the huge weight difference doesn't count for anything. You get nothing for free in GURPS. Weight is worthless without ST to back it up, so represent big fighters with high ST. Otherwise, you've built a pile of jelly.

Finally, note that it's mostly myth that a big guy can't be touched owing to his size. I can assure you that a knockout punch is a knockout punch. If Mas Oyama could kayo bulls, then Bruce Lee could kayo Andre the Giant. The big guy's advantage turns heavily on grappling the small guy ASAP to prevent strikes, at which point the rules handily favor him; the most common result is a one-shot Neck Snap or Wrench Spine kill. Of course, it goes both ways . . . the small guy can't really afford to trade punches with a mountain.

[Stripe]

Wow. Thanks Kromm! That's service for you. :)

I also appreciate the page references.

If I could side-step the topic and ask where the minimum requirements for ST are, I'd appreciate that too. Fantasy? The Build section of Characters? IDHMBWM.

I do have MA and Fantasy, though I've not heavily scoured them, only taken what I wanted and ran. I've read the "How Strong Should a Giant Be" section. I haven't made much use of the hand-to-hand maneuvers in the Basic Set and none from MA. I see now that's where I needed to look.

I wanted to get through my original post without mentioning the fact that I'm 5'8 and 220 lbs., and that the last time I messed around on the bench I threw up 300 pounds before my shoulder made me quit. Okay, so it was 100 three times. Just kidding. ;)

I'm also a very, very active practitioner of BJJ even though I can't spell it. ;) I used to live at our MMA gym before work made me quit. Also, my friend runs a barroom boxing event, and we put on the gloves on a semi-regular basis. Well, a few times a year. Okay, so some of those times I just watch. Not kidding there. ;)

Also, I'm a full time police officer. And, there are no weight classes on the street. :)

So, I am speaking from experience. I also realize very well that sports such as BJJ and boxing are not street fights. I'm missing 1/4 a front tooth and can breath perfectly out of the left side of my nose due to my experience on the streets.

But, I didn't come to talk about reality, only GURPS rules. And, I appreciate your reply. :)

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Kromm

If the big guy has twice the small guy's ST, he doesn't even need to bother breaking free; he can just lug the small guy around (p. B370).

Slightly, but not much, off-topic: I've always been curious about that rule. Why was this determined solely based on a comparison of ST? Should it not have been a combination of ST and mass?

That is, instead of "if you're twice the ST of the guy grappling you, you can just walk away while lugging him around," why not something like "if your basic lift is greater than the mass of the guy grappling you, you can just walk away while lugging him around."

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Slightly, but not much, off-topic: I've always been curious about that rule. Why was this determined solely based on a comparison of ST? Should it not have been a combination of ST and mass?

That is, instead of "if you're twice the ST of the guy grappling you, you can just walk away while lugging him around," why not something like "if your basic lift is greater than the mass of the guy grappling you, you can just walk away while lugging him around."

There's a fair amount of rules that compare ST to ST that seem to be more appropriately compared to mass. I houserule that most of these use HP instead, as in my games that's the "mass" attribute unless you take a +0% modifier to a certain amount of hit points.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Slightly, but not much, off-topic: I've always been curious about that rule. Why was this determined solely based on a comparison of ST? Should it not have been a combination of ST and mass?

Weight (not mass) is already naturally a factor - the smaller guy counts as encumberance normally. So if the small guy is the Jello pile Kromm was talking about (say, ST 7 and 210 lbs, which I can make a fairly strong argument for being my statistics btw - go go sedentary lifestyle) I sure as hell can't stop Mr. ST 14 or ST 15 from going wherever he wants.

But he's not going to go there very quickly, cuz I is FAT yo and he's going to have 210 lbs hanging off his shoulder (possibly wimpering because I'm also critically afraid of heights and don't like having my feet off the ground).

That is, of course, assuming I can even support my own weight with my hand grip - something I'm actually personally a bit dubious about. As are the GURPS rules - with a Basic Lift of 9.8 lbs, I'm over 2x my Extra-Heavy Encumbrance, and definitely over my two-handed lift limit.

And this is an important point - if the half-ST character is so heavy that the stronger guy can't stagger off with him (over 10x the bigger characters BL), the half-ST character sure as heck can't carry himself with 8x his own, roughly 1/4 BL.

[Kromm]

Yeah, please remember the full rule on p. B370:

If you grapple a foe of more than twice your ST, you do not prevent him from moving away – you're just extra encumbrance for him!

See also the third bullet point under Other Actions (p. B371). The small guy's weight certainly does matter – it slows down the big guy. Obviously, if it's enough weight, it stops the big guy from moving. However, the odds of that happening if the larger fighter has twice the smaller one's ST are insignificant if both have suitable weight for their ST. Even a Very Fat ST 9 person who weighs 330 lbs., the maximum suggested by the Build Table (p. B18) falls within a ST 18 individual's Heavy encumbrance band; a normal one who weighs 135 lbs. is barely out of the ST 18 warrior's Light encumbrance band.

What the ST comparison represents is your ability to dig in heels, exert force, and root the conflict in place. Weight factors in the usual way, via the encumbrance rules. The two are linked, of course, but not identical.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Stripe

If I could side-step the topic and ask where the minimum requirements for ST are, I'd appreciate that too. Fantasy? The Build section of Characters? IDHMBWM.

Yes, the build table on pp 18. The description of the Growth advantage expands on this and describes the minimum St to support your frame as 5 X height (in yards).