details of Projection (Corp)

[tHEhERETIC]

Alright--help me clarify this Song please!

Demon here is using Corporeal Projection, for reasons I'd best not say. The angelic PC's are planning to shoot him, with guns, probably to break his concentration. My question is this:

Will it do more than break his concentration? Assuming they don't find his vessel, can they use the Projection to hurt him in any way?

Further, he has a sword in his hand. Does that necessarily mean he has a sword near his vessel, or can he create that whole-cloth illusion? Where does the actual sword have to be in relation to the vessel? Is it possible for him to give the Projected sword to someone who's quite physical? So far I've assumed no, and used that to tip the PC's that he is a Projection.

Am I doin it wrong?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Alright--help me clarify this Song please!

Demon here is using Corporeal Projection, for reasons I'd best not say. The angelic PC's are planning to shoot him, with guns, probably to break his concentration. My question is this:

Will it do more than break his concentration? Assuming they don't find his vessel, can they use the Projection to hurt him in any way?

Further, he has a sword in his hand. Does that necessarily mean he has a sword near his vessel, or can he create that whole-cloth illusion? Where does the actual sword have to be in relation to the vessel? Is it possible for him to give the Projected sword to someone who's quite physical? So far I've assumed no, and used that to tip the PC's that he is a Projection.

Am I doin it wrong?

The following is from Liber Canticorum, p. 48, which expands the description in the IN core slightly; I've used boldface to show what was added by LC:

"When projected, the performer appears as a translucent, shimmering version of his celestial form (if he has one; his true form otherwise). The projected form cannot touch anything or take any physical damage, although like normal celestial forms it is open to celestial attack (but cannot retailate; if attacked, the performer's only options are to soak up the damage or terminate the projection)."

Now if he's instead using Ethereal Light to sculpt an illusion, it could appear any way he wanted it to, and he'd take no damage even from a celestial attack. On the other hand, the crew would get to notice something wrong with a Perception check minus the demon's Ethereal Forces ... and angels have notoriously high Perception.

Hope this helps!

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

The following is from Liber Canticorum, p. 48, which expands the description in the IN core slightly; I've used boldface to show what was added by LC:

"When projected, the performer appears as a translucent, shimmering version of his celestial form (if he has one; his true form otherwise). The projected form cannot touch anything or take any physical damage, although like normal celestial forms it is open to celestial attack (but cannot retailate; if attacked, the performer's only options are to soak up the damage or terminate the projection)."

Now if he's instead using Ethereal Light to sculpt an illusion, it could appear any way he wanted it to, and he'd take no damage even from a celestial attack. On the other hand, the crew would get to notice something wrong with a Perception check minus the demon's Ethereal Forces ... and angels have notoriously high Perception.

Hope this helps!

Clear as mud.
Core makes no mention of the 'translucent, shimmering' bit and that's a big difference. Again, I'm working from a first edition of Core, so there's a chance that was added between editions. Ugh.
But some things here are consistent. It won't take physical damage. Some of the PC's were able to perceive it and some weren't, which after a little comparing notes revealed it for not-Mr.-White. In either case it can't hand a physical object to another character because it's not physical in the solid sense.
The question left then is, whether Projection or Light, whether it can take celestial damage or not. Now if the players' editions of Core mention the 'translucent shimmering' bit, then he's necessarily using Light and thus can be hit by celestial damage. Light, however, means his vessel isn't necessarily unconscious...

[DAlillama]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

The question left then is, whether Projection or Light, whether it can take celestial damage or not. Now if the players' editions of Core mention the 'translucent shimmering' bit, then he's necessarily using Light and thus can be hit by celestial damage. Light, however, means his vessel isn't necessarily unconscious...

Projection can be hit w/ Celestial damage; Light can't, as it's just an illusion

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Clear as mud.
Core makes no mention of the 'translucent, shimmering' bit and that's a big difference.

Hate to disagree, but yes it does. Pg. 83 of my copy of the First Printing. And yes, the DAlillama is right on the money -- as noted in the excerpt above, a Projection can explicitly take celestial damage, while Light is merely sculpted photons and puts the performer at no risk.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Hate to disagree, but yes it does. Pg. 83 of my copy of the First Printing. And yes, the DAlillama is right on the money -- as noted in the excerpt above, a Projection can explicitly take celestial damage, while Light is merely sculpted photons and puts the performer at no risk.

Thank you much--glad you disagreed. I looked straight under the Corporeal heading, and didn't go back to the, uh, description. Nasty habit left over from WoD munckins, I'm surprised I still have it.

So the illusory Mr. White can't take damage, and the real Mr. White is conscious, because he's been using Light rather than Projection.

I wonder what he's been doing these last few seconds? ;)

Thanks for pointing me at Light--saved my GM butt here.

[JCD]

At this point you probably don't need it, but I'll add this anyway:

A Projection is a communication and sensory 'spell'. It allows the character to instantly be elsewhere to look around and talk, albeit at the risk of taking some soul hits. It also doesn't last particularly long (CD + Corp Forces rounds). Note that it doesn't LOOK like Mr. White, it looks like his Celestial Form, as mentioned elsewhere.

As far as the sword is concerned, if he has it as a Celestial artifact, why not? It's there as long as it's in his 'possession' i.e. he has proximate ownership. (This is a squishy term. If it's nearby and he was the last one to use it or he has a link to it, sure. Not if he left it in his dresser yesterday)

But it sounds like you are attempting an effect. Just recall that he needs to be able to SEE the folks, or his illusory creation (if you go that route) will be an animatronic hologram which will talk to empty air if/when the players move around, not to mention not being able to hear or see what is said in their responses.

Now, for my NEXT trick, why not have him Project AND cast Ethereal Light around the projection so he can look any darned way he wants AND be able to see and hear what is going on. This has three beneficial effects and one downside.

1) He can look like his normal vessel instead of a translucent Celestial Form.

2) He is able to see and hear, not to mention avoid Celestial attacks because he appears to not be vulnerable to them.

3) He can send his illusion loping off as a distraction or have it do other difficult things (such as run through walls etc) causing the players to use Songs/Essence to 'get' him while he dodges to his slumbering vessel.

Downside: It is going to cost a bunch of Essence and the Projection will cause a boom. I would rule that as long as he is simply painting a new image on himself, he wouldn't require a lot more concentration then he would for normal movement. Anything else will take effort.

Good Luck.

[tHEhERETIC]

I like your "next" trick, and wish I'd thought of it. The 'boom' rules it out here, as I'd merely described an ordinary Disturbance and don't want the players to feel cheated by changing it after the fact. But otherwise yeah, that's the effect I was after.

Artifact, cool, and would have worked. Trying to keep the villains relatively low powered though. But thanks...seems to me Mr. White has one more Song he'd use to try to save his own a--.

Yes, I was attempting an effect, and got the Song wrong and had to do some adjustments. Light. He was able to see what he was doing because he was hanging under the rail car and thus could see his opponents' feet and react to that.

There was a reason he didn't send his hologram running...I forget what it was though. Probably just a hunch that it wouldn't work.

Much thanks.