The new kids with the Big Guns. (help!)

[FeverFox]

Hey all, new to both this forum and the system ^_^

So I just picked up the Basic Set Gurps books the other week and ran a character creation session the yesterday, I am running a fairly mixed tech, basic set only light hearted campaign. And with that in mind I didn't give much in the way of character restrictions.

Little did I know...

Now, the group I play with are the power gamers of power gamers, in fact it was for this very reason I tried to get into gurps and far far away from the bent and broken remains of D&D. But I gave them the benefit of the doubt, gave them the character book and said go nuts and only to cover high cost things with me.

Most of the characters seem fine. But one had me quite worried.

He was a LMG specialist with accelerated time rate (which I allowed before his character concept "evolved” and became quite combat orientated)

This got me looking more into the big guns and it seems to me that nothing can really stand up to the big guns in this game. I noticed that melee and guns had balance issues but this was more of a difference in tech levels then in the actual system and I was planning to fix this by bringing in more commen tech-melee weapons. e.g. the force sword.

However, when looking at things like the LMGs and RoF rules I just can not see how anything else can compete. It’s not simply very high damage (7d), but the amount of times you can hit with it and the difficulty of defending against it.

Am I reading the rules wrong? is RoF really as heinous as it seems? If so, what do you suggest to help me control this? (I am already thinking of banning the character in question, but now I’m worried about RoF in general) I was thinking a 20 skill point cap, and making the really big weapons very hard to obtain.


Thanks!

[RedMattis]

The problem, if you would call it that, is that GURPS simulates reality. In a Gun versus Sword fight the gun will almost always win. ...and probably win a lot if we're talking about a machine gun, if you catch my drift.

A bit of information on the setting and other characters might make it easier for us to help you with your problem.

[nick012000]

Combat at high TLs is all about avoiding being seen while doing your best to find the enemy. Stealth and C3I are your best weapons; if you get found, you're dead.

[Ulzgoroth]

Reasons not to use an LMG:
-Can't get one/legal complications. (Common for non-military types)
-Too heavy/bulky. (Common for military types)
-You've got an even heavier weapon. (Common for people riding in tanks)

Pretty much never seen as a reason not to use an LMG:
-A sword is a better weapon. (Might have happened in Star Wars EU, if the setting has any LMGs)


GURPS doesn't provide artificial game balance between melee and ranged weapons. Up to modern tech, it more or less goes for realism. Which means that a well-chosen repeating firearm beats a melee weapon almost every time.

I don't know whether the ultratech non-superscience weapons are built for theoretical soundness or game balance, but they aren't built to make swords into dominant battlefield weapons again.

If you want swordsmen to deal with gunmen successfully without pulling off a tactical masterstroke to set it up, you need cinematic options. Lots of cinematic options. That specifically nerf shooters.

[Molokh]

I have a suspicion you're not reading Rapid Fire rules carefully enough. RoF is not the End-All Be-All of ranged weapons. In fact, it's pretty modest compared to GURPS 3e or Fallout (where RoF was a killer).

[FeverFox]

The problem, if you would call it that, is that GURPS simulates reality. In a Gun versus Sword fight the gun will almost always win. ...and probably win a lot if we're talking about a machine gun, if you catch my drift.

A bit of information on the setting and other characters might make it easier for us to help you with your problem.

Certainly,

The setting i'm running is a chaotic post apocalyptic world, it has 5 main city centres known as Nexus north, south, east, west and Dirt-haven. Out side of the cities confines is a malady of danger and strangeness.

Time pockets with cavemen, roaming bands of cybernetic bandits and strange night stalking creatures might well be the least strange things to encounter out there.

The entire world has essentially turned into a weirdness magnet.

It has new tech, robotics and laser rifles but has lost much of its old tech, such as tradition firearms.
but it's also not uncommon to see people with bows, swords or other more mundane weapons, also common is new tech versions of these weapons; plasma bows, ect. (how I was planning to keep these fighting styles viable)

The campaign is based around a Crimelord/TV producer sending the unwilling characters on a deadly treasure hunt for his public television station.


So far we have a fire attuned pyromaniac who’s powers only manifest in fire or under stress. (mine, we are switching around GMing after the first 6 or so sessions I run)

An ex-brain surgeon who uses auto-hypnosis and has a compartmentalized mind.

An ex-military laser firing sergeant.

and the undead/robotic accelerated time rate LMG specialist.


-----


Yeah I see what you guys are saying about realism... hrm.

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by FeverFox

-snip-

First off welcome to both the forum and the GURPS system. My first suggestion would be to view it less as a system ready to do out of the box and more as a toolkit of options that can be used when desired. Unlike say D20 most of whats in the core books and the various other supplements are purely optional and who's use is intentionally left up to the GM so that they can tailor fit the rules to the sort of game they want to run. Now I mention this both for below and the fact that many new GM's have a tendency to think that if its in the book it has to be used. This is something I'd keep in mind the next time your player group wants to take or make use of "X", your well within your right to forbid them anything as you see fit right from the start. This is exactly what the advantage/disadvantage tags are for, after all.

Secondly, as has been mentioned by default the combat system (and the rules as a whole) tends to pay lip service to reality; this is why at higher TL's guns quite brutally trump any melee weapon you can imagine along with making combat even more dangerous. With the correct set of options it is quite possible to have a workable setting where swords can compete on an even footing with guns; but to do so you are going to have to use a number of the more cinematic ones. Specifically as mentioned ones that tend to 'nerf' firearms and 'buff' melee weapons. It'll be fun, but don't expect it to be realistic in the slightest.

[FeverFox]

Originally Posted by Jonas

First off welcome to both the forum and the GURPS system. My first suggestion would be to view it less as a system ready to do out of the box and more as a toolkit of options that can be used when desired. Unlike say D20 most of whats in the core books and the various other supplements are purely optional and who's use is intentionally left up to the GM so that they can tailor fit the rules to the sort of game they want to run. Now I mention this both for below and the fact that many new GM's have a tendency to think that if its in the book it has to be used. This is something I'd keep in mind the next time your player group wants to take or make use of "X", your well within your right to forbid them anything as you see fit right from the start. This is exactly what the advantage/disadvantage tags are for, after all.

Secondly, as has been mentioned by default the combat system (and the rules as a whole) tends to pay lip service to reality; this is why at higher TL's guns quite brutally trump any melee weapon you can imagine along with making combat even more dangerous. With the correct set of options it is quite possible to have a workable setting where swords can compete on an even footing with guns; but to do so you are going to have to use a number of the more cinematic ones. Specifically as mentioned ones that tend to 'nerf' firearms and 'buff' melee weapons. It'll be fun, but don't expect it to be realistic in the slightest.

Good point, I think i'll simply have to run run character creation again but this time with a closer eye on what people have.

After thinking about it for a bit longer I think through limiting weapons and creating new weapons (guns are strong but ammo is rare type deal maybe) I can keep a balance pretty well, though I would ask what are the options and cinematic rules you are talking about? or do you mean custom made ones?

I guess the paradigm shift between d20 to this might be the hardest part for me and my players :)

I have a suspicion you're not reading Rapid Fire rules carefully enough. RoF is not the End-All Be-All of ranged weapons. In fact, it's pretty modest compared to GURPS 3e or Fallout (where RoF was a killer).

It seems to be pretty devistating. especially with innate attacks (as they have a recoil of 1). for only 50% more you can double, or triple your damage output. as well is hitting more easly. Just to be sure i'm reading it right; a gun with RoF 4 and Rcl 2 can fire an extra bullet (up to 4 in total) for each 2 in its margin of success. yes? and you dodge 1 extra bullet per margin of success when defending?

[sgtcallistan]

Either: drop Rules As Written and go cinematic, with hordes of low-points enemies to blast; make the game a violent romp, but one in which advancement rarely comes from loot ('hey, these mutants haven't go anything in their pockets!'); they will rapidly burn up their ammo/weapons, and have to invest some points in some 'axe/mace' skills.

OR; enforce the rules on weapon failure, maintenance and ammo requirements.

Make these things hard to get.

When the players find themselves grinding through a dungeon full of trash looking for ammo/parts, to maintain their character's ability and specialisation in a single high-tech weapon; suggest another game, one with RP'ing.

Then give them a worldbook / prospectus that limits the kind of character they can make.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by FeverFox

Good point, I think i'll simply have to run run character creation again but this time with a closer eye on what people have.

Indeed. If you stick around on these boards for a while, you'll see that the first piece of advice given to new GMs is to think hard about the kind of campaign they want and come up with a limit on which abilities and bits of hardware are available in the campaign.

Originally Posted by FeverFox

After thinking about it for a bit longer I think through limiting weapons and creating new weapons (guns are strong but ammo is rare type deal maybe) I can keep a balance pretty well

I'd stick with the weapons as written, but severely limit their availability as well as their ammunition. For example, you might require an Unusual Background to allow access to higher-tech weapons and ammo, and even then require rolls against, say, Streetwise to allow actual purchases. You can use TL and LC as indicators of how hard to get an item is. Say, -2 per TL over 5 and LC under 4, and additional penalties as you see fit on quantities but perhaps bonuses for low quality. So your machine gunner can try to get a gun, but he may end up getting a cheap, temperemental one which jams frequently, and his ammo supply is limited, so he has to choose his moments rather than just spray bullets all over the landscape at the drop of a hat.

Originally Posted by FeverFox

I guess the paradigm shift between d20 to this might be the hardest part for me and my players :)

It's quite a change, yes.