That's it! I've had it with D&D

[Widowlander]

For risk of sounding like this is some GURPS rebound post I'd just want to start out by saying I've been playing both the 4th ed rule set for Dungeons and Dragons and RUNNING a GURPS game of my own for the past 3 months. Where as GURPS continues to show how fantastic the system is (flawed in places, and still taking some getting used to, but FANTASTIC) the DnD games are getting more and more mundane and combat heavy. Yes, I try and try to make the characters in DnD mean more to the story than just dice rolls, but there is very little about character creation and development that lend itself to that ultimately. Kill some stuff, level up, and get more gear, so you can kill stuff, level up, and get more gear. That's pretty much what my DnD games have devolved to. Oh, I try my best to give the players meaning for going through the dungeons after dungeons and a purpose for their actions, but the game itself is now based on the loot grind. It's kinda sad how computer MMOs have effected that game. After 40+ sessions and a year into it I've finally come to the end of my rope and can no longer excuse it for what it is.

Yet, every week, my GURPS players are pushing the envelope in character design, motivation, and background. I find that the campaign (which I'm all but ready to toss THAT little word to the side) is beginning to really write itself. Since, there really are no adventure modules for GURPS (which is what I fall back on in DnD when I'm not feeling so creative) I've had to build the story from scratch...actually I've built my entire GURPS WORLD from scratch. Therefor I'm far more invested in the characters and their motivations (good or ill). This past Saturday, I kid you not, I didn't even show up for the game with any notes or subplots or points that I wanted my players to go through for that particular session. Everything had been built up to this point, and they were so much into their own character motivations they literally took control of the session and just sorta 'made things happen'. It was a feeling I hadn't felt for a long time and I realized that all my sessions had been building up to that very moment. It was that feeling that we were weaving together a story, together, as a group of friends, detailing the life and actions of larger than life (yet VERY human) characters. Not just numbers on a page, not just min/max dice roll depositories, but CHARACTERS!!!

Is this is DnD bash thread? Nope, why would I waste my time doing that HERE on a GURPS forum. Nah, its a "glad I found this flipping game, and haven't regretted a moment playing it" thread. I've grown up in a lot of ways in the few months I've picked B-set up. I've come to find that my imagination and the things I put into it are far more exciting than playing various archetypes that have become almost standard RPG flair. I look forward to my Saturdays now because I know for about 4-5 hours I'm going to be treated to a showcase of time, effort, and dedication to character design that sets itself apart from the hum drum of the hack and slash 'fill in the character blanks at your own leisure in between the loot finding' style of play. Will I ever go back to D&D? Personally I just don't think I like the system anymore. Honest. I find in GURPS, I can spend days working on a character (Some my say that's a bit sad, but I think its fantastic) as opposed to a few minutes with character builder on DnDi. But there in lies the flavor, the fun, the excitement of building a persona and bringing him/her to life at a table with your friends and watching the sparks fly.

GURPS is certainly harder to prepare for. Nothing is laid out for you saying "this is how it should be done". You're far more at the mercy of your own whims and for some people (including myself at first) that can be daunting, especially when you've grown up on systems that pretty much tell you this is how you play and don't stray away from it. And I will be the first to admit that this was a bit off-putting to start. It's like a kid who's had nothing but fast food his entire life, than one day decides he's going to start eating better. Sure, it's easier to just head to Micky D's and grab a #2 value mean than it is to sit at home chop up some veggies, grill a lean chicken breast and slap it on a tortilla for a healthier snack, but you sure feel better than you do had you wolfed down that bacon double cheeseburger. But you're USED to that bacon double cheeseburger so it's hard to quit! But in time, you realize that the best things are the things you prepare yourself, and put time and effort into and you begin to enjoy THAT more than just quickies that clog your colon (aaaaaand I'm way off course now). I said all that to say GURPS was NOT the easiest game for me to get into due to the 'fast food' gamer background I've had and making my own 'food' as it were was a task that in many ways had taken me aback. But as I've grown I'm beginning to realize the privileges this provides and the ultimately investment I feel when doing so. It's GURPS for me baby from here till I find something better. And I'm just not certain I will anytime soon.

Here endeth my rant I guess.

[The Wrathchild]

Well ... that's ...

GOOD FOR YOU! ;-)

Welcome aboard :-)

Like hearing myself, oh, 18 years ago ... OMG ... has it really been that long? ...

[warmachine]

You ought to repeat this on forum.rpg.net though it'll turn into a flame and troll war.

[Crakkerjakk]

Why would he do that, then?

[Widowlander]

Nah, not trying to start a flame/troll war of any kind. That's why I posted it HERE where I knew it would be accepted for what it was, an ode to my enjoyment of a RPG system that is neither restrictive nor noncommittal. It's whatever I want it to be. Had I gone to say, I dunno, the wizards forum, I'd probably be getting my buttocks chewed up as we speak. No need for that. I've nothing to prove.

[Crakkerjakk]

I'm glad you've found something that you and your friends enjoy.

That it's something I enjoy mightily myself is just a bonus. :-)

[sjard]

Moved to a more appropriate forum.

[sgtcallistan]

'Well done Luke, you have made your first steps into a larger world.'

Slightly more seriously; it's been some years... my good god, over fifteen years, since I had this breakthrough myself (AD&D to GURPS).

It happened again more recently; DnD 3rd, DnD 3.5, GURPS, some able to make the jump with me, others not.

It still feels wonderful to hear it from someone else.

I tend to tell players who make the enormous conceptual leap from DnD to GURPS: 'sanity has prevailed'.

Welcome to the forum and please tell us about your world building...

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Widowlander

Yet, every week, my GURPS players are pushing the envelope in character design, motivation, and background. I find that the campaign (which I'm all but ready to toss THAT little word to the side) is beginning to really write itself. Since, there really are no adventure modules for GURPS (which is what I fall back on in DnD when I'm not feeling so creative) I've had to build the story from scratch...actually I've built my entire GURPS WORLD from scratch. Therefor I'm far more invested in the characters and their motivations (good or ill). This past Saturday, I kid you not, I didn't even show up for the game with any notes or subplots or points that I wanted my players to go through for that particular session. Everything had been built up to this point, and they were so much into their own character motivations they literally took control of the session and just sorta 'made things happen'. It was a feeling I hadn't felt for a long time and I realized that all my sessions had been building up to that very moment. It was that feeling that we were weaving together a story, together, as a group of friends, detailing the life and actions of larger than life (yet VERY human) characters. Not just numbers on a page, not just min/max dice roll depositories, but CHARACTERS!!!

Yes, GURPS works very well for that. But it's only partly the system. My players will do it regardless of system . . . though we play more GURPS than any two other systems put together, so they're all people who can cope with GURPS. But I've gotten the same effect with Big Eyes Small Mouth and FUDGE.

For example, my last BESM campaign started out with a lightly sketched location. I asked the four players each to come up with four player characters: a mature noble, a young adult noble-in-training, a soldier belonging to the castle guard, and a servant. And I had them not just invent the nobles, but invent the entire household the nobles belonged to, with its rules of marriage and political succession, its family tree, its preferred style of magic, and even how its members dressed. Then I wove all the family trees together, worked out other details of the setting, and started going through the character sheets looking for plot hooks . . . and found several. At that point, as you say, the campaign started writing itself. If you have players who have the impulse to story or drama, trying to constrain them into the plot you've come up with is wasting one of the best resources you could have. The good thing about more freeform games like GURPS and BESM is that they're well suited to making use of that resource.

Of course, it's unpredictable, and you have to do some extra work. But, you know, in my view, those are the good things. "This system doesn't let me off easily; it compels me to make an effort to come up with good stuff" isn't exactly a flaw.

Bill Stoddard

[Shrale]

Originally Posted by Widowlander

GURPS is certainly harder to prepare for. Nothing is laid out for you saying
"this is how it should be done". You're far more at the mercy of your own
whims and for some people (including myself at first) that can be daunting,
especially when you've grown up on systems that pretty much tell you this is
how you play and don't stray away from it. And I will be the first to admit
that this was a bit off-putting to start.

Which is probably one of the reasons D&D does so well, it's easier to start
up with than GURPS. In effect it's very much like a computer game, where you
plug in and everything is done for you.

Now, any GURPSer could probably whip up a D&D setting (or at least a game)
very easily.

How you play is another matter entirely. Groups range from munchkin, combat
heavy power stuff to games probably not unlike GURPS ones, where it's RPing
and not just kill, kill, treasure & kill.

I setup a Phase World game via play by post. Phase World is Palladium's/Rifts
in Space. I expected a barrage of munchkins (you know how Palladium works)
and was _surprised completely_ by the players I got, who weren't all
power-hungry munchkins, but actually pretty good RPers. They just knew the
system and adapted to it.

I've seen crappy D&D gamers/DMs and some very good ones.

I expect it's up to you to make it worth while.

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