Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-12-2010, 06:48 PM   #91
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by theshadow99 View Post
I don't think I have any clear disadvantages (compared to others in my field, we are all known to be a tad quirky). But in my area I've applied for around 40 jobs in 11 months and gotten two interviews let alone a job. And that's with degree and 8 years experience in my field.... Sometimes they just really aren't hiring, or if they are it's not 'skilled' labor it's 'cheap' labor and someone with skills doesn't sound cheap (I've been told twice after interviews I'm overqualified). I'm lucky in that the stay is giving me extended unemployment or I'd lose everything I own...
With respect, how do you know that you lack relevant Disadvantages? Or that you have high skills?

And people aren't 'overqualified' in the absence of perverse incentives. If you have a choice between two applicants for the same job at the same salary, you go with the better one. It's only if there exists some absurd rule that forbids people from freely negotiating for their salary and benefits that this is not true.

If you happen to live somewhere with such perverse incentives, leave. If you can't or won't, that's a relevant Disadvantange right there. GURPS characters without Disadvantages are assumed to be able and willing to be 'adventurers' and are not tied down anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theshadow99 View Post
As for volunteering... Many places won't take volunteers. It's a liability in several ways. Those that do are often non-profits and may not need your abilities... And so would never hire you...
It doesn't have to be a formal internship. If you are demonstratably better at the task than the person doing it and you will do it for the same money, prove it.

A rational actor would fire the person doing the job and hire you. And until we've centralised all production, we'll still have some rational people running companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theshadow99 View Post
In my field I can work at anything from a PC technician to a Director of technology for a company (And in my career I have worked at most of the jobs between those two). I was underpaid nearly 20k at my last job and just recently I say a position as a Network technician II offering 'above average current wages' of 26k/year... I can make 23k/year working at a electronics store (and did during college)... So no, if you have skills it still doesn't mean they want to pay you what your worth...
'Want to' has nothing to do with it. We assume that they want the person who gets better results not because of their innate charity and goodwill, but because then they end up earning more money.

Sure, some people are bad at making decisions about how to maximise their profits. Happily, we have a mechanism that weeds out many of them and keeps the people who are better at spotting talent in business.

It's not perfect, but it still prevents people with high skills from languishing at Starbucks. Unless those people have Disadvantages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theshadow99 View Post
I know people with Masters degrees out of work right now. Education doesn't mean a job anymore than skill does.
It's possible to have a Masters degree without having high skills at something. It usually means a host of Disadvantages, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theshadow99 View Post
Actually plenty of people in my field do work for the government (or as contractors to) and they pay way better than average here... But they are also hard to get. To get a government job in my field I need to take and pass about 6 tests held once every few weeks and you can only take one per day.... So it's a couple months just to take all the tests... I don't want the hassle or the drive 40 miles each way to take a test... Government work can often be a bit... crappy.. At least in my field... because outside the military or federal levels they are often years behind in technology...
'I don't want the hassle'.

Are you absolutely sure that this is not representative of a Disadvantage, at least at Quirk level, in GURPS? Given that a character without any Disadvantages is a rootin', tootin' adventurer who'll go out and delve into dungeons for a chance at some filthy lucre?
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 06:51 PM   #92
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Like someone with Economics 12, and Teaching 12 might work as an Economics instructor? Maybe teachers are super-wealthy in magical Iceland, but that's not the case here.
Economics and Teaching 12 aren't really skills that would make you rich. Finance might, but Economics is a purely academic skill.

Economics will not more make you rich than Expert Skill (Political Science) will get you elected.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 06:54 PM   #93
Ragitsu
Banned
 
Ragitsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
but Economics is a purely academic skill.
To be fair, Economics actually does have real life application. The entry for this Skill even mentions something related along these lines.
Ragitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 06:55 PM   #94
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Unpaid internships which aren't learning situations are actually illegal in this country because anyone in a market where they can get people to work for them for free for a month is in a situation where they can just keep that free labor coming in and do that work free on a rotating basis, why bother paying anyone for what you can get done for free...
So something that two people agree that they wish to do of their own free will is illegal?

That's great and wishing to continue to live under such tyranny is probably a Quirk level Disadvantage on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
After all, if you're willing to work without remuneration for a month, then your labor is clearly worthless.
If you do more and better work than someone they are already paying, it's rational for them to start paying you so that you do not leave.

This isn't a theory, by the way. It's what I did the last time I needed a job. Granted, I worked for free for a day, not a month, but that's how long it took the people to offer me a job.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 07:46 PM   #95
theshadow99
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
With respect, how do you know that you lack relevant Disadvantages? Or that you have high skills?

And people aren't 'overqualified' in the absence of perverse incentives. If you have a choice between two applicants for the same job at the same salary, you go with the better one. It's only if there exists some absurd rule that forbids people from freely negotiating for their salary and benefits that this is not true.
No, no you don't. You go with the one that's the best skill vs cost ratio. High skill implies more money even if you short them. As an example in my field I should go find a video from a HR company in Pittsburgh PA (about 100 miles from me) and how they screen resumes for tech jobs with companies with the sole purpose of _Disqualifying_ US workers and making these jobs eligible for H1B's and other lower paid workers (though this isn't to say all H1B's are paid bad, but the average is they are crapped on).

And compared to an H1B my $400/month in college loan payments automatically makes things harder on me to take less pay. I don't have to pay those while unemployed, if I did I'd already have imploded from losing my job.

Oh and as for 'disadvantages', no more than anyone else... Far less than some... I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs (That HR director I mentioned btw was a druggy). I'm usually personalable (Though opinionated at times, but it's not like that is a sin). I usually get along with most people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
If you happen to live somewhere with such perverse incentives, leave. If you can't or won't, that's a relevant Disadvantange right there. GURPS characters without Disadvantages are assumed to be able and willing to be 'adventurers' and are not tied down anywhere.
Lol, Leave? How?!? I can hardly afford to live where I am, I can't afford the costs of moving. I live in a house that is my mothers childhood home, I don't own it and I don't rent it. I'm 'allowed' to stay here by the owners. I just pay the utilities, which totals almost all the money the government is willing to give me. To move somewhere with better access to jobs means moving to a larger city, with things like rent with first and next months rent being something I can't afford. I didn't expect my company to go belly up and they weren't paying me terribly well before that. But I'd gotten tired of doing consulting work. I also lack my contacts I had in the old days, I haven't needed my business contacts in 4 years like back then. So just jumping back into consulting is hard as well. You make it sound so easy...

Money directly relates to your real world ability to 'adventure'. Even GURPS somewhat gets this with "Depending on the level you drop to, these might include unpaid servants quitting, threats from your landlord, malnutrition, eviction, or anything else the GM feels appropriate. The GM may also reduce your effective Status to the level you’re supporting in any situation where your reduced circumstances would cause a negative reaction; e.g., at a “society” function or when meeting strangers who do not recognize your face." The problem with real versus GURPS is that it's quite easy to not just 'go down a level' but drop from 'Poor' to 'dead broke' in an instant in real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
It doesn't have to be a formal internship. If you are demonstratably better at the task than the person doing it and you will do it for the same money, prove it.

A rational actor would fire the person doing the job and hire you. And until we've centralised all production, we'll still have some rational people running companies.
How? They _Won't_ let you in. It's not even legal! You are a complete liability and for something like my field it's worse as you need the 'keys to the kingdom' to do your job.

The real world isn't rational. When mommy Dearest from my HR example wanted the company to hire her son, I nearly got the boot even though he lacks _any_ skills. Is that rational...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
'Want to' has nothing to do with it. We assume that they want the person who gets better results not because of their innate charity and goodwill, but because then they end up earning more money.

Sure, some people are bad at making decisions about how to maximise their profits. Happily, we have a mechanism that weeds out many of them and keeps the people who are better at spotting talent in business.

It's not perfect, but it still prevents people with high skills from languishing at Starbucks. Unless those people have Disadvantages.
Apparently the US has missed this 'mechanism for weeding out bad decision makers', I've yet to work for a company that didn't seem to reward _bad_ decisions as long as you were in good with the right people. Maybe that's my failing, I refuse to suck up to people and rely on my actual skill and ability to work with others to accomplish complex tasks. Though that's the opposite of your 'rational world' if we term it a disadvantage....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
It's possible to have a Masters degree without having high skills at something. It usually means a host of Disadvantages, though.
Or they aren't hirable in the fields they have skills in. Which you don't seem to understand happens outside of GURPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
'I don't want the hassle'.

Are you absolutely sure that this is not representative of a Disadvantage, at least at Quirk level, in GURPS? Given that a character without any Disadvantages is a rootin', tootin' adventurer who'll go out and delve into dungeons for a chance at some filthy lucre?
Hell if their was a cave to go in with a Dragon involved I'm there! Sign me up for a one way ticket!

On the other hand 3 months to pass 6 tests for one of 2 or 3 government jobs in my field a year...? The cost/benefit analysis says no. It's about the same odds as winning the lottery.
theshadow99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 08:00 PM   #96
aesir23
 
aesir23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
So something that two people agree that they wish to do of their own free will is illegal?
This is not an especially unusual case. Most drug and prostitution laws operate under the same principle.
aesir23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 08:03 PM   #97
Ragitsu
Banned
 
Ragitsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
This is not an especially unusual case. Most drug and prostitution laws operate under the same principle.
Great example, aesir23. And, in North American culture, a particularly poignant issue as of late.
Ragitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 08:04 PM   #98
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
This is not an especially unusual case. Most drug and prostitution laws operate under the same principle.
You really think that I agree with such laws?

People forcing their morals on others is wrong and evil. No matter what morals those are.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 08:34 PM   #99
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
Ze'Manel Cunha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
So something that two people agree that they wish to do of their own free will is illegal?
Not to say that I agree with it being illegal, but it's in place to protect people from being exploited.

After all, like I said, if you can get labor for free, why would any profit seeking company ever pay for it?

People who want jobs and experience come in, do work, and get replaced by the next batch of naive job seekers who work for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
If you do more and better work than someone they are already paying, it's rational for them to start paying you so that you do not leave.
If you're working for free, then that's what your labor is worth, nothing, why would a company bother hiring you and wasting their money if there's a dozen people like you waiting their chance to give a month's worth of work for free?, that's a year's worth of work right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
This isn't a theory, by the way. It's what I did the last time I needed a job. Granted, I worked for free for a day, not a month, but that's how long it took the people to offer me a job.
Sure, and it can work when the economic conditions are right, and I've recommended it to people myself, doesn't change the fact that it doesn't work when the conditions aren't right, or the fact that when there's a slump companies take advantage of the free labor coming through that revolving door.
Ze'Manel Cunha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 08:42 PM   #100
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: How to handle in game wealth increase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
After all, like I said, if you can get labor for free, why would any profit seeking company ever pay for it?
How many economies do you know of where job seekers outnumber people with jobs?

The reason that companies pay for good work is that it's rare. Degrees are not all that rare, but people who come through them without Disadvantages and with high skills are.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.