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Old 07-19-2005, 12:58 PM   #21
Romalar
 
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl
Now the Second Volly if they aware of the attack, but cant see the soruce they have -4 to their active defences. your played did bother with concelament to set up this ambush right?
So, when the PCs attack, the ambushees should immediately get a Per roll to spot their attackers? Or do they need to spend the next round actively looking to get the Per roll? Should they have penalties to the Per roll due to the ambush, or bonuses due to muzzle flash and sound?
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Old 07-19-2005, 01:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

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Originally Posted by Romalar
So, when the PCs attack, the ambushees should immediately get a Per roll to spot their attackers? Or do they need to spend the next round actively looking to get the Per roll? Should they have penalties to the Per roll due to the ambush, or bonuses due to muzzle flash and sound?
They have ti wait for their next action to make the Per Roll. the Sound and Muzzle Flash is somthing they can use in "memory" (their next action) to find them not react.

And Contest between the Vision roll and Camo skill if the ambushers.
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

The way I do it: I start with a point level (25-point rabble, 50-point gangsters, 75-point soldiers, 100-point veterans, 150-point elite troops, etc.). I buy them the ST they need to carry and use their "issue" weapons and armor; HT 11-12; any Patron, Rank, etc., that fits; an optimized mix of DX and weapon skills for their gear; and as much Leadership, Soldier, Streetwise, Tactics, etc. as the encounter calls for. Once I'm done, if I have 10 points left, I add HPT. If I have 15, I add CR. If I have 25+, I add both.
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:19 PM   #24
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl
.

Thir first Volly should be aimed, so more than likey they will hit [and non of the hits are dodge.

Now if the Survie this Volly, they dealling with Shock. so any reat turn fire is going to be less effecting...assume the have Spooted where the ambush people are fireing form.

Now the Second Volly if they aware of the attack, but cant see the soruce they have -4 to their active defences. your played did bother with concelament to set up this ambush right?
They were off their game that night and rolling poorly. I, on the other hand was on fire for some reason. If I rolled the dice it succeeded, usually by a lot.

As for Ambusher concealment this was usually a hastly put together situation. So between the good rolls I was getting and the crappy ones they had it was like they were in the open.

The mooks having CR just added insult to injury.
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:56 PM   #25
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

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Originally Posted by umbros
Yes, no defense, but even so the entire enemy squad was not hit, in fact most were not hit. And blazing gun fire is pretty easy to perceive. "Hey, we're being shot at!"
Which means they could drop when they get to their initiative, doesn't mean they're guaranteed to see where the fire came from.

BTW, All the PCs were aiming for 3 seconds, braced, AoA, positioned for advantage (bonus at GM call), for base bonuses of +7 to +11, and they all still missed?
Man, they shouldn't even have been trying to get into combat at all.

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Originally Posted by umbros
Come on! the average guy is going to have a 16 or less roll! Who's going to fail that?
It could happen. *grin*
Besides, until their initiative comes up, they are still surprised, so any PCs with initiative over them should be able to get in a second turn of unaimed fire, which at the very least should make them dive for cover first, and look around for who's shooting at them later.

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Originally Posted by umbros
As I said before, while not "elite" they were "battle-hardened" which some take as good enough justification to give them Combat Reflexes. I have found that this doesn't give the effect that I want in my games. So, I don't do it anymore. As far as stun goes, if you aren't hit you can't be stunned.
Yeah, well a squad of "battle-hardened" vets with all of them having combat reflexes should be scary. This is why you always want to have tactica, numerical and possibly technological superiority in this type of confrontation.
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

If the characters can't manage to win an attack from ambush, they are either not in the right business, way outnumbered, or hugely unlucky.

All the attackers should be hiding, and camoulflaged. Thus, it will take a victory over two contests to spot them. The same range penalties that make it harder to hit make it harder to spot them. Sure, the gunfire and muzzle flashes make it easier to spot them, but only for a finite bonus.

Round one:
Attackers get attacks with all the bonuses- aim, all-out attack, braced, etc.
Defenders should all be surprised, and lose the round. Many will be hit, and stunned by wounds.
Round two:
Attackers pick new targets, hose the area, or keep shooting at aimed targets that aren't dead yet. They still don't need to defend.
Defenders dive prone, or attempt to recover from stun. The fastest/luckiest among them attempt a per roll to spot the Attackers.
Round three:
Attackers keep up the pressure, targeting people who are stunned but not wounded, or shooting back.
Defenders, if they aren't stunned, have won a contest of Per vs. Stealth, and a contest of Per vs. Camouflage, get to shoot back at attackers. Attackers get full defenses, and cover.
Round Four:
Attackers who haven't been spotted can shoot at defenders not looking at them- no defenses. Attackers can duck behind cover again, move to new firing positions (for fresh per rolls to spot them).
Defenders stay the same.

Overall, if a military style group can't win an ambush against two or three times their number, they aren't doing it right, or not all the rules are being used.
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

Just remember that concealment skills -- predominantly Camouflage and Stealth, but for that matter Holdout, Smuggling, and even Disguise and Shadowing -- are among the most overlooked skills for PCs. I've had several amusing moments in my own games where PCs who were supposed to be soldiers didn't have Stealth or Camouflage . . . Sure, I told the players, but it's easy for a D&D-bred gamer to say, "Naw, I'm no assassin or thief. I don't need those skills to be a warrior."
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
Which means they could drop when they get to their initiative, doesn't mean they're guaranteed to see where the fire came from.
True, but this time they did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
BTW, All the PCs were aiming for 3 seconds, braced, AoA, positioned for advantage (bonus at GM call), for base bonuses of +7 to +11, and they all still missed?
No, No, No, and No. My players are too cheap to by their own copy of the book, too lazy to read mine, and too stubborn to take my advice. So I suppose they wern't proper ambushes, more like several individuals running up and attacking and getting in each others way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
Man, they shouldn't even have been trying to get into combat at all.
nope. But they did have fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
It could happen. *grin*
sure. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
Besides, until their initiative comes up, they are still surprised, so any PCs with initiative over them should be able to get in a second turn of unaimed fire, which at the very least should make them dive for cover first, and look around for who's shooting at them later.
Very True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
Yeah, well a squad of "battle-hardened" vets with all of them having combat reflexes should be scary. This is why you always want to have tactica, numerical and possibly technological superiority in this type of confrontation.
Believe me they were, more than I intended. Giving them all CR was a bad choice on my part with my players.
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
The way I do it: I start with a point level (25-point rabble, 50-point gangsters, 75-point soldiers, 100-point veterans, 150-point elite troops, etc.). I buy them the ST they need to carry and use their "issue" weapons and armor; HT 11-12; any Patron, Rank, etc., that fits; an optimized mix of DX and weapon skills for their gear; and as much Leadership, Soldier, Streetwise, Tactics, etc. as the encounter calls for. Once I'm done, if I have 10 points left, I add HPT. If I have 15, I add CR. If I have 25+, I add both.
Page 71 of GURPS WWII may also be relevant, as it talks about modifying soldier templates based on troop quality (used in the Mass Combat System) in Compendium I (and Roleplayer #30). Generally, only Seasoned or better troops have CR.

Page 138 of Special Ops 3e is also slightly relevant.

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Old 07-19-2005, 04:11 PM   #30
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: how common should combat reflexes and hpt be among mercs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by umbros
So I suppose they weren't proper ambushes, more like several individuals running up and attacking and getting in each others way.
Ah, well in that case you took it too easy on them, the "battle hardened" squad should've taken the PCs hostage and sold them back for ransom due to being inconvenienced.
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