New LotR campaign - advice appreciated

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Brett

The real difficulty is in assigning Status to Gandalf and Saruman.

Gandalf seemed to be outside the social hierarchy altogether, coming and going as he pleased and lipping off to kings and lords left and right. Perhaps he simply had a whole heck of a lot of Social Regard (respected - divine being), plus Reputation and Charisma.

Saruman, of course, set himself up as a head of state before he got taken down by enraged trees. A puppet king, but still pretty high status nevertheless.

Luke

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Gandalf seemed to be outside the social hierarchy altogether, coming and going as he pleased and lipping off to kings and lords left and right. Perhaps he simply had a whole heck of a lot of Social Regard (respected - divine being), plus Reputation and Charisma.

I don't think that form of Social Regard is valid, because wizards were specifically forbidden to reveal their origins and true natures; it was a big deal that Cirdan guessed Gandalf's background and gave him the Ring of Fire. Nor do people do a lot of kowtowing to him.

I would say that all wizards had a little Status, as learned men knowledgeable in magic. Radagast might have been Status 1. Gandalf seems to have been comparable or a little higher. Saruman, as keeper of Isengard, was probably Status 5 (a great captain and lord) until he started developing pretensions to Status 6 or even 7.

Gandalf's Reputation was more complex. Among the Wise, to be sure, he was known for wisdom. But in the Shire he was that strange old man with the fireworks who inspired hobbit-lads and lasses to go on adventures. And in Rohan, Wormtongue greets him as "Ill-News."

What he has is more akin to Legal Immunity; he can be called to account by the Valar, or by other wizards, but mortal rulers don't try to do so. At worst, a mortal king might order him to leave and not come back. And it certainly carries a Duty with it!

Bill Stoddard

[Diogenes]

OMG, high fantasy and economics.

As far as I can see, any reasonably successful high fantasy author was, er, a bit lenient with the laws (?) of economics in order to further plot and coolness, and The Professor was no different. I would not make much fuss about it. Let's see ...

Dwarves are in my opinion likely to trade with the outside (Erebor shows this), and no-one said they didn't raise a crop or three for bread and beer on the roofs of Khazad-dûm.

Elves: self-sufficient as ever, mentally and physically, so to speak :)

Hobbits: Idyllic English countryside, which is largely self-sufficioent, too,. Of cours, trades for metal and other conveniences. Knows money, but we don't know which. (LSD, I presume.)

Humans, Good and Evil: As humans go ...

Orcs? Well, they are minor villains and robbers, aren't they?

And so on; a single short paragraph is enough in any case.

[Anaraxes]

But in the Shire he was that strange old man with the fireworks who inspired hobbit-lads and lasses to go on adventures.

To Frodo, after Bilbo's 111th birthday party.

Originally Posted by Gandalf

I'll come and see you again, as soon as I can. Expect me when you see me! I shall slip in quietly. I shan't often be visiting the Shire openly again. I find that I have become rather a nuisance and a disturber of the peace.

Not general Social Regard at all. But SR only works when people can recognize you, and in this case hobbits don't even really know what Wizards are, unlike kings and elves.

Reputation might be sufficient. Mortal rulers might not try to call a wizard to account simply because of their Reputation ("subtle and quick to anger").

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think that form of Social Regard is valid, because wizards were specifically forbidden to reveal their origins and true natures; it was a big deal that Cirdan guessed Gandalf's background and gave him the Ring of Fire.

By the end of RotK, Frodo knew what the wizards were (read the section where they captured Saruman). Whether their true nature was an open secret among the learned, or just known to a few elven leaders and an inspired guess by Frodo, I couldn't tell you. Certainly, there were not many options for Known Things they could have been by the end of the third age (too long lived for men, even Numenorians, would have to be very good actors and disguise artists if elves, clearly not orcs or dwarves, that leaves two classes of beings (unless something strange were going on - Numenorians who really did find the secret to immortality and managed to survive the sinking - but that falls outside of Known Things)). I suspect there were many who suspected the truth, but that's all it is, a suspicion.

Originally Posted by whswhs

Nor do people do a lot of kowtowing to him.

Good point.

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would say that all wizards had a little Status, as learned men knowledgeable in magic. Radagast might have been Status 1. Gandalf seems to have been comparable or a little higher.

I might be tempted to call this Social Regard (respected - learned men) rather than Status, since it didn't seem to be tied to the social hierarchy, but the effects are so similar it probably doesn't really matter. Also notice that Gandalf exploited Social Regard (venerated) when going to see king Theoden ("would you deny an old man his staff?" or something to that level).

Originally Posted by whswhs

What he has is more akin to Legal Immunity; he can be called to account by the Valar, or by other wizards, but mortal rulers don't try to do so. At worst, a mortal king might order him to leave and not come back. And it certainly carries a Duty with it!

Yeah, legal Immunity seems like a good mechanic to represent this. Good catch.

Luke