Fighting with scythes

[vesper]

Most Fantasy (war) scythes remind me of much large versions of Kama's. I have used a agricultural scythes I actually have two of them I use (for cutting grass and weeds). When really sharp they cut really well but they are rally made tos swing at ankle height. You can swing them higher but they are pretty awkward. That said with a good swing I am pretty sure I could go through someones ankle, but they are a incredibly crappy combat weapon

The fantasy (war) scythes would need a heavier blade than the agricultural scythe. This on a long shaft would be very hard to swing and target well. Think of a 3 pound sword mounted at the end of a 6' shaft. A scary "warhamster" like weapon but not very practical in a more "realistic" campaign.

[Bruno]

I thought of another way to try and describe the blade-set on an agricultural scythe.

When you hold the scythe out to harvest grain, the handle is held out at about a 60 degree angle from your body.

When held like this, the scythe blade is PARALLEL to the ground, not the handle.

On a fantasy scythe, the blade will be at a 30 degree angle from the ground, PARALLEL to the handle.

[jason taylor]

Scythes would probably be mostly seen when the local Sheriff needed a posse to chase some pirates away or what not. They could be scary in this role because of numbers, desperation and sheer anger. But they were still just ad-hoc weapons.

[SuedodeuS]

Yeah, scythes aren't exactly optimal for weapons, but they can be used as such - and I think they can be used as Polearms. The closest weapon to my scythe (in stats) is the dueling halberd, so let's do a comparison.

Damage: Scythe has slightly lower swing impaling damage, and its cutting damage is pitiful. It does have one plus going for it - it cuts the enemy when used with the hook technique. In fact, it cuts better than any sharpened hook in Martial Arts.

Reach: Same

Parry: Same (but see later, MinST)

Cost: The scythe is much cheaper, meaning you could get a Fine quality one for a little more a Good quality dueling halberd.

Weight: The scythe is much lighter, so it's a bit more conducive to use by agile fighters.

MinST: The scythe can be used by weaker individuals than the dueling halberd. However, whereas the halberd can be used to strike continuously, the scythe requires a Ready maneuver between each attack (unless you have really high ST).

Use: Use of the scythe suffers a skill penalty. However, it has one attack that is difficult to block/parry, and another that is difficult to dodge (but rather easy to block/parry). The first could in theory be used with a halberd technique (-1 damage, -1 block/parry --- total -1 to skill), and the other isn't particularly useful (as most opponents rely on block/parry) and has anemic damage.


So, basically, my scythe is an anemic version of the dueling halberd that isn't too terrible for dragging unarmored enemies around (pain compliance is nice). Oh, and it's larger hook allows it to reach around an enemy's guard a bit more readily. This seems about right to me.
Also note that the agricultural scythe stacks up even worse, thanks to the additional skill penalty on the swing and the damage penalty on the hook.

[Moralgay]

Actually, as a martial artist who has used one and fought against it sparring, I believe the majority here are underestimating the effectiveness of the "Fantasy" Scythe and overestimating the difficulty to use - it's very MUCH like a staff in a majority of the techniques and almost as quick. The agricultural scythe is very difficult to use and not a good weapon, but that is primarily due to it's blade angling, wrong thickness and weight of blade, sometimes uneven shaft. But as for a "Fantasy Scythe"? We made one and practically everyone who fights against it is caught completely offguard, it's a frightening weapon in that you can't parry it when it swings at you unless you fight it sideways. You basically have to change your whole thinking and think you opponent is 90 degrees from where he is - left or right depending on direction of the swing. Essentially it is a sword thrusting at you from the side tho with a quick and horrific two handed and leveraged "swing" or "pull/push" likely after if the thrust is parried which can be quickly reversed with the butt of the shaft threatening your BACK if initial parry was opponent side, the shaft defending the scythe wielder even at extreme close range. When a vertical underhand swing is performed against you the blade is coming nearly vertically up, like an uppercut, and requires the same sort of special training and horizontal parries to stop.. if one tries to parry the blade like most weapons - you're dead. Vertical overhand strikes are the easiest to parry without any adjustment necessary but even so, the angle of the blade in effect makes you have less time to do so before being impaled.

Furthermore, while I admire your logical thoughts on the weapon aren't your stats LESS than these from the GURPS weapons?;
http://www.bagelfather.com/edfiles/d...ds/weapons.pdf

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Moralgay

Furthermore, while I admire your logical thoughts on the weapon aren't your stats LESS than these from the GURPS weapons?;
http://www.bagelfather.com/edfiles/d...ds/weapons.pdf

So they should be. Basic Set gives a scythe sw+2.
That table doesn't make sense. How does one deliver thr damage with a scythe?

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Moralgay

Actually, as a martial artist who has used one and fought against it sparring, I believe the majority here are underestimating the effectiveness of the "Fantasy" Scythe and overestimating the difficulty to use - it's very MUCH like a staff in a majority of the techniques and almost as quick. The agricultural scythe is very difficult to use and not a good weapon, but that is primarily due to it's blade angling, wrong thickness and weight of blade, sometimes uneven shaft. But as for a "Fantasy Scythe"? We made one and practically everyone who fights against it is caught completely offguard, it's a frightening weapon in that you can't parry it when it swings at you unless you fight it sideways. You basically have to change your whole thinking and think you opponent is 90 degrees from where he is - left or right depending on direction of the swing. Essentially it is a sword thrusting at you from the side tho with a quick and horrific two handed and leveraged "swing" or "pull/push" likely after if the thrust is parried which can be quickly reversed with the butt of the shaft threatening your BACK if initial parry was opponent side, the shaft defending the scythe wielder even at extreme close range. When a vertical underhand swing is performed against you the blade is coming nearly vertically up, like an uppercut, and requires the same sort of special training and horizontal parries to stop.. if one tries to parry the blade like most weapons - you're dead. Vertical overhand strikes are the easiest to parry without any adjustment necessary but even so, the angle of the blade in effect makes you have less time to do so before being impaled.

Furthermore, while I admire your logical thoughts on the weapon aren't your stats LESS than these from the GURPS weapons?;
http://www.bagelfather.com/edfiles/d...ds/weapons.pdf

Ah, thanks for the information! It's good to get feedback from someone with experience with such weapons. I did forsee that the scythe would be difficult to Parry, hence the built-in penalty when used with Deceptive Attack. A bonus to Beats and Disarms might be appropriate, however (although the former would be accounted for if using A Matter of Inches from Martial Arts).

As for the scythe being weaker than you anticipated, keep two things in mind. First, cutting whilst swinging would be somewhat difficult due to the way the blade is set at 90-degrees to the shaft (although if you saw differently, please tell me). This requires you to attack in an odd manner, which basically leeches some of the potential kinetic energy away and thus leaves you with less damage. Truth be told, I'm not convinced it's even possible to cut with a fantasy scythe without using the Hook technique.
Second, the mock scythes you used most likely had a very different weight distribution than real ones would. The fact they apparently had comparable mobility to staves certainly implies this was the case! A real scythe would be both extremely top-heavy and have a strange-feeling weight distribution (as all the weight is going to one side, not straight ahead). This is the reason I thought an innate -1 to skill would be appropriate.

[hal]

One of the things I recall stumbling upon over the years, was reference to the fact that the use of scythes during harvest was not without its hazards, and that one could suffer some SERIOUS injuries self-inflicted, or even upon a neighboring harvester with an improperly swung scythe. If I had to run an incident (ie role playing encounter) where a farmer attempted to use a scythe against a player character, I'd probably set it up such that attacks higher than the waist would be penalized by an additional -2, but that low aiming point attacks would be the "Natural" attack zone of the scythe itself. Thus, attacks against legs would not suffer a -2 penalty. As for the two handed grip for the scythe? I can't help but imagine that it would be about as effective as a staff for parries but for the odd angle of the scythe blade at the end of the "staff" itself. Perhaps the scythe's parrying abilities do not benefit from the +2 bonus that a staff technique might gain?

[DAlillama]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

So they should be. Basic Set gives a scythe sw+2.
That table doesn't make sense. How does one deliver thr damage with a scythe?

I see Sw+2 cut and Sw impale; the thrust damage on the next line is for the spetum.

[Moralgay]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

So they should be. Basic Set gives a scythe sw+2.
That table doesn't make sense. How does one deliver thr damage with a scythe?

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

Ah, thanks for the information! It's good to get feedback from someone with experience with such weapons. I did forsee that the scythe would be difficult to Parry, hence the built-in penalty when used with Deceptive Attack. A bonus to Beats and Disarms might be appropriate, however (although the former would be accounted for if using A Matter of Inches from Martial Arts).

As for the scythe being weaker than you anticipated, keep two things in mind. First, cutting whilst swinging would be somewhat difficult due to the way the blade is set at 90-degrees to the shaft (although if you saw differently, please tell me). This requires you to attack in an odd manner, which basically leeches some of the potential kinetic energy away and thus leaves you with less damage. Truth be told, I'm not convinced it's even possible to cut with a fantasy scythe without using the Hook technique.
Second, the mock scythes you used most likely had a very different weight distribution than real ones would. The fact they apparently had comparable mobility to staves certainly implies this was the case! A real scythe would be both extremely top-heavy and have a strange-feeling weight distribution (as all the weight is going to one side, not straight ahead). This is the reason I thought an innate -1 to skill would be appropriate.

*smiling widely* I think I see why everyone seems in such confusion about this. There's real confusion about between thrusting, swinging, cutting and impaling due to confusion about motion and damage.

To DanHoward, there is no thrusting damage, like there is no swinging damage; thrusting is using raw strength, swinging is using leverage.

Damage is either piercing, cutting or crushing (in these cases). Now we all basically know what crushing is, but I see some people are confusing piercing with having to be thrust and cutting having to be "swung".

You can thrust and be cutting if your weapon has a convex or diverging. For example: a Badelaire (http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Badelaire), a Cutlass, Half Moons (https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.ph...ItemID=1525387), a Bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_(weapon)), perhaps even an Anelace (http://medieval.mrugala.net/Armes/Gl...es%20armes.htm) though you may be first be more impaled and then cut wider and wider as you slid down the blade.

Similarly you can swing and be impaling if your weapon has a point at the side. For example: a Bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_(weapon)), a Halberd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd), a Lucern Hammer (http://www.ravenwoodarchers.com/defa...&page=polearms OR http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~ssbohe/P...le_lucerne.JPG)

So let me ask you, do claws cut or impale? Answer that and you answer the question about the scythe which is essentially a large claw. GURPS has claws doing either and I see even crushing (bear) in some circumstances due to approximating factors I suppose (tho I'd like the crushing explained). The reality they do both - depending on how you hit. A large claw is both a point and a convex and in my opinion Scythe or claw if you hit dead on you impale and get stuck / grip (though the convex does some cutting / enlarging of the wound sideways). If you don't hit dead on then the point tears the target and the rest of the convex enlargens the wound to unhealthy proportions ;).

So yes, you easily cut with a scythe, it's actually harder to impale. Impaling should probably do more damage as any impale is enlarged by the shape of the blade to much more than the tip alone would warrant. Only reason I say probably is there is alot of blade to cut with which might be how GURPS is looking at it... see from the table sw+2 cut, sw imp, I think they tried to match damage in that table since impaling is a x2 bonus versus cutting which is 1.5x tho I'm not sure if I agree with that. Your impaling damage is more impressive and agreeable to me considering the enormous leverage of the weapon and the fact that the halberd with a smaller curved pike at the side does sw+4 imp. I cannot agree with your cut being sw, the same as a light saber. As per the parrying difficulty you were very insightful understanding that tho I would raise it, maybe even add a -1 on block with considering being able to intentionally strike far with it to be blocked and then reaping from behind.

As per flat thrusting cut for reaping in or crush for thrusting out, yes that seems quite reasonable. And with everything I do have to commend your sharp thinking on it given all you knew and being quite keen on understanding thrusting being direct application of force and not limited to forward pointing weapons.


As for the blade being light, not at all. The reason that is not so huge a factor is the method we used it. We used the scythe as primarily per the chinese styles way of using the staff - circular and almost never stopping as opposed to a more japanese economy of motion (tho just as effective) or worse swinging then fighting against the inertia of the swing to reverse direction or waiting for energy to fade before reversing. No we rotate the force of the motion and continue with it, not fighting against it and losing time - such means continuing the rotation but changing the angle such as slicing right to left rotating the right hand over the head and under the upraised left arm - gaining speed with gravity pulling the weight down along with continued force. Rotation around the center of gravity of a weapon is an important point as well, the scythe, as per a crowbar need not be fully moved to block or attack. Think of you holding a very heavy crowbar with the weight mainly in the curved end and you're fighting a fast knife wielder. There is no way you're going to block or parry him if you attempt to move your crowbar like a knife, instead it is more effective to leave the weight where it is and quickly rotate the handle around the weight thus blocking/partying attacks rapidly with such rotations and as per japanese styles, when the handle is held up, and gravity pulling weight down, even slightly moving it left or right to block/parry but not moving the crowbar unnecessarily until you create an opening then rotating the force of it (from even a parry) around your body, head, wrist. And certainty the scythe is easily to wield by far than a three section staff, nunchucks or any section (chinese) chain whip (requiring rotation of motion on even more levers of elbows, knees, hips) or even frails which can even less afford stops / halting of momentum.