GURPS Alchemy - Any Takers?

I’m not sure if it’s just me or whether it’s the rules, but it seems to me that GURPS alchemy is a system that no player character would want to use. I mean, a simple healing potion takes a week to create; and things that magic can do for a starting character it would take 6 weeks of preparation time to replicate in alchemy. Now this seems great for the story if you have to go to an NPC alchemist and request a potion. The NPC can say, “Sorry, it will take three weeks”.

Now I just don’t see why any PC would employ Alchemy as part of his character? Maybe a wizard or engineer might use alchemy as some side skill to employ in rare instances or for elixir detection. Maybe there is no way to have quick (and possibly dirty) alchemy without unbalancing it against the rest of GURPS magic? Then again, there is the combination of Quick-Gadgeteering and alchemy (M pg. 211), which allows for quick potions, but brings down a heavy skill penalty to use and requires more character points.

So my real question is, is there anyone out there using alchemy as a key feature to their character? Using it at all? Even if you are not using it I would like to hear some opinions about the alchemy system in GURPS, its usefulness, and balance.

[AmesJainchill]

Wow. Alchemy sucks. Unless you don't have magic at all in the campaign or it is extremely expensive, Alchemy sucks for PCs.
Now, the products of alchemy might be cheaper, and useful if there is a Guild of somesuch for mages that bans magic use, but allows alchemy to be used because it is inefficient and slow.


The advantages of alchemy (pseudo-magical yet non-magical items) in D&D at least are that it is non-magical in nature, anyone can use the items, and that they are useful and simple--the fantasy equivalent of smoke bombs, glowsticks, matches, napalm, goo grenades, etc.

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by Friar Zero

[...]
Now I just don’t see why any PC would employ Alchemy as part of his character?
[...]
So my real question is, is there anyone out there using alchemy as a key feature to their character? Using it at all?
[...]

In my current campaign, Magery is usually extremely rare. For characters without it, Alchemy is the only way to do some magical stuff. Since Alchemy can be learned by anyone, alchemists will be a lot more common, or in short: They are a lot easier to find. Even mages can make good use of Alchemy- to regrow a limb, for example, you need a high level of Magery, if you don't have it and cannot afford a that much gifted healer, alchemy is the only option.

Ah, and don't forget: Not all GURPS fantasy campaigns are of the dungeon crawling type. A few weeks for brewing a potion might not be a problem at all in some campaigns.

[Kromm]

I think the basic idea is that off-screen guys with Alchemy at 20+ and nice labs brew elixirs in big batches, and then the PCs buy them at crazy prices. The skill and rules to use it are there for PCs who have the downtime, sure . . . the same way rules for inventions and enchantment are there. Lots of things aren't really useful on the hyperactive time scale most games seem to favor.

Also note that most elixirs produce long-lasting effects for 0 FP that a wizard would have to pay many FP per minute to maintain. They fill a different niche.

[The Wrathchild]

Originally Posted by DrTemp

Ah, and don't forget: Not all GURPS fantasy campaigns are of the dungeon crawling type. A few weeks for brewing a potion might not be a problem at all in some campaigns.

Definately. I have both an Alchemist and an Enchanter IMC. Both because the campaign allows is but also becuse the two put pressure on prioritizing it, time is allowed for some potionbrewing and itemmaking.

[hal]

What you might want to consider doing is the following:

1) change the preparation times for potions.
2) Limit the number of potions that can be made at any given time
3) lower the cost of potion ingredients
4) figure out what you want an alchemist to make per day's worth of work
5) figure out the success rate of alchemical production.

If you have access to Excel - you will find that it can be VERY helpful in determining the basic parameters that you want for the production of alchemical potions.

Lets take an example brew "Chiron" (the healing potion):
It takes $50 in ingredients, and will require 1 week to produce. It defaults to Alchemy-1.

Lets assume you have an alchemist with skill 14 (per GURPS MAGIC for 3e which required an alchemist to have a skill of 14 plus access to a lab). His modified skill with the potion assuming he doesn't have any points sunk into the "technique" to buy off the -1 penalty, but has access to an alchemical lab for a bonus of +1 - has a modified skill of 14 to produce one potion. He decides to create a single batch with a modified skill roll of 10. This gives him a 50/50 chance of success. A batch would required an additional penalty of -4 to adjust his skill to a base 10, so that means he's making five potions in his batch. In a two week period of time, he's making 10 potions, and statistically, he's going to ruin 5 of those 10 potions. Total cost for materials is 10 x $50 or $500. Total time spent working is two weeks. At $33 per day income, for 14 days, our alchemist is supposed to be charging a total of $462. Total expenses for 10 potions will be $962. Just to break even for the expenses and earn his traditional $33 per day's worth of work, our alchemist has to charge $192.40 per potion. This does not include breakage of equipment nor does it include anything for when he has to replace his workshop for those days when things just don't go right (ie, a crit failure AND a resulting explosion of the lab.

So how can you make prices drop for the various potions? Cut the cost of ingredients by 1/2. Cut the time of production by what ever the GM wants to experiment with.

Same potion, different times required, no batches allowed, time of production is one day:

Cost of ingredients is $25 per potion. Time to make is one day. Odds of success is roughly 90 at skill 14. Ten days worth of labor will result in 9 potions that were successfully created. 10 potions cost of ingredients is $250. Ten days of labor at $33 per potion is $330 Selling 9 potions requires that the alchemist sell his potions at roughly $65 per potion. Compared with the income of a poor person, this is roughly 20% of the monthly cost of living.

As you can see, GURPS ALCHEMY really can be modified to suit your own tastes. It can be broken down into the following categories:

time to make
Cost of ingredients
Chance of success for preparation
Labor costs

Once you have those values available, you can determine what those potions should cost.

[Digren Kaellise]

My wife and I wrote a very detailed GURPS Herbalism system for my recent campaign. We weren't very happy with the existing alchemy rules, and we liked even less that Herbalism just said "use the alchemy formulas, but get your ingredients in the wild (and you can't analyze potions)." It seemed that there could be more to develop, and indeed there was.

[joncarryer]

Originally Posted by Digren Kaellise

My wife and I wrote a very detailed GURPS Herbalism system for my recent campaign.

I don't suppose you'd be willing to e-mail me a copy of that, would you? I'm using herbalism as an alternative to rune magic in my Vikings game and I'm similarly dissatisfied with the mechanics, but am too busy keeping the rest of the campaign up to speed to put the time into re-writing the Herb Lore/Alchemy stuff. My email is my login name @yahoo.ca

[hal]

One of my favorites for alchemical rules is from the makers of BARD GAMES, who produced the out of print game called THE ARCANUM. It has some really nifty potion ideas, ingredients, etc. such that some herbal remedies take only an hour to make, but has a lesser time duration, while some potions take 3 weeks to make, but generally has a longer duration than does the remedies. The really NICE thing about the rules was that it told you where to find the ingredients - whether it was in mountains, swamps, etc. Unfortunately, the prices in that were as outrageous as the prices in GURPS alchemy. Many of the potions would require that the Alchemist cater to roughly 2% of the population rich enough to be able to afford the potions :(

For those who keep an eye open for old out of print books, try AMAZON.COM and do a search on THE ARCANUM or THE COMPLEATE ALCHEMIST. Both of those are essentially the same thing except that THE ARCANUM is an alternative to D&D rules as well as having spell lists and alchemical potion rules...

I guess there are a couple of things on my mind about the GURPS Alchemy system. I understand that the GURPS alchemy system is built much like the enchantment system. This is designed to be an accessible system that takes time and dedication to create effects. Now if I make the brew time shorter, will that interfere with the point balance? Or will it have no major effect on the rest of the game? Hal, you talk about simply adjusting the time to brew on potions, but I’m concerned about possible balance issues

Essentially, I am looking for a “quick-and-dirty” form of alchemy. MacGyver Alchemy, something that can produce effects without extensive creation time. Now, so far a great option seems to be the “Quick-Gadgeteering” advantage combined with alchemy (M pg. 211). This would allow you to create potions in minutes instead of weeks. Yet even this enforces a stiff penalty to skill. Now I don’t have my books in front of me right now, but I believe it is possible to buy this off with a separate ‘quick’ version of the technique/formula. Quick-Gadgeteering itself also comes at the price of a few character points (not sure how many, momentarily deprived of books).

So I am wondering, how much would an “Alchemy Only” limitation on Quick-Gadgeteering cost. Is this a way to emulate a MacGyver style of Alchemy? What other alternates or new systems have GMs and players created to deal with the slow nature of alchemy? What about you Digren Kaellise? Are there balance issues or certain mechanics to consider if someone just wanted to rescale brewing time, Hal? Thanks for all the great responses so far.