[KROMM] Elaborating on Low Empathy

[DryaUnda]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Everyone is assumed to be somewhat altruistic when there's no risk involved and nothing to lose. That isn't worth points . . . in fact, if you're not like that, you have something like Callous or Low Empathy, and are at minimum a sociopath, if not actively evil.

I always thought Low Empathy "only" meant very low interpersonal intelligence, as opposed to not giving a damn. What is the difference between Callous and Low Empathy?

[Kromm]

Callous means you don't care. Low Empathy means you can't care. Whether this is by choice or neurology depends on whether you took the disadvantage as a personal trait or got it from a racial template. If you chose either, you're one sick puppy. If you got it from being an AI or an alien, you're probably just weird.

[DryaUnda]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Callous means you don't care. Low Empathy means you can't care.

Hmm; I'm not convinced. The description for Low Empathy says that you can have emotions, but that you just don't understand them (unless you have No Sense of Humor and/or Killjoy). What Disadvantage would you consider to mean 'very low interpersonal intelligence, but not incapable of caring'?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by DryaUnda

What Disadvantage would you consider to mean 'very low interpersonal intelligence, but not incapable of caring'?

-1 Quirk: Socially Inept

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

-1 Quirk: Socially Inept

Or Oblivious [-5] (p. B146).

[GoodGame]

Originally Posted by DryaUnda

Hmm; I'm not convinced. The description for Low Empathy says that you can have emotions, but that you just don't understand them (unless you have No Sense of Humor and/or Killjoy). What Disadvantage would you consider to mean 'very low interpersonal intelligence, but not incapable of caring'?

Callous: the empathy for a lower veterbrate, for it's dinner, an even lower veterbrate.

Low empathy: A young, wealthy, ignoramous, "who's never left home" from country A, for a poor starving person as a representative country B, that they're meeting for the first part.

Oblivious/socially inept: A saint with Mr. Magoo eyesight who accidentally drives over a poor starving person from country B. The saint has visited country B on missions, and just happened not to notice this particular person in the saint's path.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Callous means you don't care. Low Empathy means you can't care. Whether this is by choice or neurology depends on whether you took the disadvantage as a personal trait or got it from a racial template. If you chose either, you're one sick puppy.

I can certianly see his point. I do have a 'question' about Callous though.

I had a little mage that was attractive, and pretty personable. Very hospitable, she'd take friends out to dinner, and chat, loan them books, talk about her gardening hobby, etc. Most people that met her thought she was very nice.

Only problem was most of it was an act. She was callous. She also had the disturbing tendancy to want to be in control of others, and was fairly possessive, But she came off as charming because she was a consummate liar. She had a series of messy, horrible things that happened to her in her life which made her fairly merciless.

It's just she didn't let others know it. She lied to everyone including herself. She deluded herself into thinking her callousness was just being practical.

As an example, she once took a shine to a fairly beautiful elven man, simply on the basis of her appreciating his natural beauty, though she didn't feel anything romantic towards him. She valued his intellect (he was a fellow wizard) and his beauty. He got into a few scuffles. She doted on him, treating his scrapes and cuts, and basically mothering him. All the while she's thinking how badly he takes care of himself.

She hatched a plan to drug his wine, and have him absconds away in a locked chamber where she could keep him safe for his own good. Watching over him, taking care of him...forever. :o

She cared nothing about his own feelings. Ultimately it was about what 'she' felt and wanted. And what was important to 'her'.

It's why I gave her callousness and not low empathy. She had 'feelings' of her own, but just didn't 'care' about others feelings. Not because she couldn't, simply because she 'wouldn't'.

Was this a correct choice?

[Kromm]

I think it's important to remember that Callous is only a -5-point disadvantage. Someone who's off kidnapping, killing, etc. has much bigger issues. Callous means that -- all other things being equal -- you'll just do what you think is best, regardless of how others might feel. However, all other things are rarely equal, and at a mere -5 points, I think you'll have quite a few lapses into empathy, especially when your callousness would lead to criminal activities that would hose you.

Now someone with Callous, and Selfish, and a nasty trait like Bloodlust, Compulsive Lying, Lecherousness, or Sadism . . . well, that's different.

[Ian Wright]

That sounds like a good example of Callous, maybe with a minor Delusion ("I'm a caring person") thrown in.

Sooo, um, about that story... Do you wear a lot of black?

Edit: What Kromm said. The criminal aspect of her behaviour is a seperate issue.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Ian Wright

Sooo, um, about that story... Do you wear a lot of black?

Nah. Wearing lots of black just 'screams' villain. /snicker. As for her, she wore tasteful robes, in elegant colors. She was fond of reds, greens, pale blues. She did have some dark colored clothing, but only as an extention of her wardrobe. So I didn't have her trused up in black all the time. It just screams: "Look at me, good aligned characters...I'm up to no good." :D

The things I mentioned were mostly stuff that 'no one' ever found out about IC. At most some people thought she was a little cold at times, but most of the people liked her, and had no idea she was this way.

She wasn't the type to just wake up in the morning and say: "Who shall I destroy today?" All of her plans and acts against others were born from some need or desire. She could be quite friendly and nice as long as your weren't in her way. But gods help you if you were, or gods help you if she became 'fixated' on you. Most of the time, she'd subtly manipulate you to get what she wanted. The one really 'bad' time involving the elf, she just took an unusual shine to his beauty and felt like protecting his features from harm. Of course her way to 'protect' him was decidedly psychotic. /grin

Originally Posted by Kromm

Now someone with Callous, and Selfish, and a nasty trait like Bloodlust, Compulsive Lying, Lecherousness, or Sadism . . . well, that's different.

She had her moments of empathy, and she was decidedly 'clever' about her activities. Most of her deeds were done with multiple contingency plans, and done on the sly. Most of the characters I was interacting with had no 'idea' that type of person she really was.

The fact that she was an adorable looking halfling helped, I suppose. :D 3ft tall, and built for evil. /laugh

As to her 'other' traits. Callous was one, of course. And Compulsive Lying was on her sheet as well. Slightly overweight (something she 'lamented' on a lot and why she wore robes). Plus some other disadvantages that connected to her past. Secret, Enemy, Nightmares etc.

I played her like a Lawful Evil, or evil with some 'honor' or code. Of course she dealt in words, and contracts, if you weren't careful, she'd end up owning you. But she'd also deal fairly if their was no loophole in the contract or agreement. She'd not go 'against' her word.

The people I played with 'really' seemed to enjoy the interaction, as she wasn't a flat evil character, but had depth and story to her. She was evil for a reason, and in her own way, she didn't see herself as evil. She lied alot, even to herself, as I said. One of my most enjoyable characters. :D

I wasn't 'sure' about selfish. While she was concerned by status, and social situations, and would get 'bent out of shape' over precieved slights, she just never showed it. So she's not the kind to lash out. She'd be all smiles, then have you followed by someone hired, or herself if it couldn't be traced back, and inflict some punishment on the person, if not having them killed outright, usually some injury was fine, especially if she 'liked' the person.

She'd show up the next day professing concern over their injury, and offer to take care of them if it was warrented. Strengthened her position with the person, and gave her a 'weird' sense of control over the person that slighted her.

She's got a few quirks like careful, chauvanistic (she said once in casual conversation around the fire, that half orcs should be exterminated or enslaved, and made some 'disturbingly' convincing arguments in favor of the law and security of civilzation...as I said she was a well liked character).

Maybe I could work in proud, but she's already at the max level of quirks she can have. I figured chuavanistic kinda covered that aspect of her, but perhaps not? Maybe she needs Proud too?