Primary - Secondary - Background Skills

D-Man · 03-11-2009, 03:07 PM

So, I am kicking myself for not knowing this. I have not been able to find anything on this topic the Basic Set Characters either.

I pulled up my PDF copy of SEALs in Vietnam and wanted to use the U.S. Navy Seal as a template for a character I am making.

I need some help. The PDF shows that it was published in 2007. It must be 4th ed, right? However, as I stated I was not able to find any info on the difference between Primary, Secondary, and Background Skills in the BSC.

What are the difference? Why the designation between them? Are there more then these 3? Also, can someone refer pages in the Core books that would further elaborate this information?

Thanks!!

cliff · 03-11-2009, 03:12 PM

See page 448 of Campaigns. I've spent a lot of time in this section as I'm creating a bunch of templates for an older world-book that pre-dates templates.

baakyocalder · 03-11-2009, 04:12 PM

Primary, Secondary and Background skills and the implied definitions first appeared in GURPS 3e. To my knowledge, they first appeared in GURPS Wizards. Before Wizards, there were suggested attributes, advantages, disadvantages and skills in GURPS worldbooks, giving you guidelines but less specificity on how to build the character.

Keep in mind that templates are optional in GURPS. How a NAVY Seal is built in GURPS Seals in Vietnam is one interpretation of what a SEAL should be. Templates cost the same as creating the character ala carte, but they speed play up by giving you parameters.

Primary skills are those skill most relevant to the occupation or race. These should be at 12+ or 14+; the higher skill level is for combat skills. Secondary skills are skills a character should have, but which aren't the most important skills. They should be skill 11+. Background skills are skills you'd expect someone in the group to possess some training in, but less than in the primary and secondary skills.

B448 goes into more detail in using templates, but if you understand them as a quick guide to a character type, they should be easy to use in any setting.

Kromm · 03-11-2009, 04:43 PM

Don't get too hung up on absolute skill levels, though. It's entirely acceptable for a background skill to be at 15 while a primary skill is a mere 12 . . . if, say, the template has DX 15 and IQ 10, and the skill at 15 is DX/Easy while the one at 12 is IQ/Very Hard. What's more important is relative skill level (here, DX+0 vs. IQ+2) and point investment (here, 1 point vs. 16 points). Plenty of published templates use relative level and points as the key distinctions.

So another way of looking at it might be:

Primary Skills: Skills without which you simply can't do the listed job or fill the intended dramatic role, often at attribute+2 level or higher. These skills should have the highest mean points per skill.
Secondary Skills: Skills that it's hard to imagine not picking up – likely via extra lessons or practical experience – while doing the job or filling the role, often at attribute+1 level or higher.
Background Skills: Common hobbies, interests, and sidelines toward which people in the job or role gravitate. These skills should have the lowest mean points per skill, usually just a point, which gives from attribute-3 to attribute level.

In all cases, factor in advantages that boost skills, too. A businessman template that includes Business Acumen might well spend just a point or two on primary skills, but the cost of Business Acumen ought to be factored into points-per-skill comparisons, and the bonus from it should be considered when comparing relative skill levels.

D-Man · 03-11-2009, 04:58 PM

So then what I am to understand it that Primary, Secondary, and Background Skills are just titles that you **might** lump your skills into? The points to get them are not effected by said title.

For example:

Secondary Skill: Boating/TL 8 (Motorboat) DX-1 [1] -12 could just as easily be Primary Skill: Boating/TL 8 (Motorboat) DX-1 [1] -12 however, I just don't do motorboating very often so it's really secondary to what I normally do?

Is this a fair interpretation of what I am to understand?

Oh and by the way I understand very well that a template is just one interpretation or "guide" to make a character. Thanks for the friendly advice.

cliff · 03-11-2009, 04:59 PM

Correct, the skills are all the same, it's just broken up by how dependent on the skills that character archetype is.

ericbsmith · 03-11-2009, 05:13 PM

To illustrate the points made above, if you were making a "Barbarian" template you might give them Broadsword and Brawling as Primary Skills, because every Barbarian can fight. You'd then give them a choice of one of the Survival specialties for a Secondary Skill, because Barbarians can survive in the wilderness, though which wilderness is more central to the specific character than to being a Barbarian. For Background Skills you might give a choice between Carousing, Climbing, Hiking, and a few other skills; these skills fit the archetype but are not necessary to actually playing the archetype.

Kromm · 03-11-2009, 05:28 PM

Yeah, these labels exist for "soft" reasons:

To give template designers simple labels to refer to elsewhere in that template or another template ("Take another primary skill at one level lower," "Choose two primary skills from the plumber template," etc.).
To help template designers communicate what they think is most important about the archetype.
To help readers browsing templates for inspiration rather than actual use figure out what's most important about the archetype.
To break up a mondo huge skill list into a few smaller lists that are easier on the eyes.

There is no "hard" meaning to these labels whatsoever. They have no effect on rules, point costs, or anything else. In supplements, they're rarely so much as mentioned outside the section on templates.

D-Man · 03-11-2009, 08:25 PM

OK, crystal clear. Thanks for the help guys. This was a head scratcher for me for a few. (o:

Dennis

~~Peter Knutsen~~ · 03-11-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

In all cases, factor in advantages that boost skills, too. A businessman template that includes Business Acumen might well spend just a point or two on primary skills, but the cost of Business Acumen ought to be factored into points-per-skill comparisons, and the bonus from it should be considered when comparing relative skill levels.

In some cases, this should be avoided, though.

Imagine (difficult as it is) that there is an Enlisted Navy SEAL Talent. All Navy SEAL non-officer templates have one or more levels of this Talent, and then also put only a single CP into each skill covered by the Talent. With high attributes (they are SEALs, after all) and the Talent, 1 CP buys them very high skill.

The four-dimensional effect of that, in this particular case, is not desirable.

03-11-2009, 03:07 PM	#1
D-Man MIB Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Salt Lake City	Primary - Secondary - Background Skills So, I am kicking myself for not knowing this. I have not been able to find anything on this topic the Basic Set Characters either. I pulled up my PDF copy of SEALs in Vietnam and wanted to use the U.S. Navy Seal as a template for a character I am making. I need some help. The PDF shows that it was published in 2007. It must be 4th ed, right? However, as I stated I was not able to find any info on the difference between Primary, Secondary, and Background Skills in the BSC. What are the difference? Why the designation between them? Are there more then these 3? Also, can someone refer pages in the Core books that would further elaborate this information? Thanks!! __________________ I am a Level 1 Human with no Class.

03-11-2009, 03:12 PM	#2
cliff Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Anchorage, AK	Re: Primary - Secondary - Background Skills See page 448 of Campaigns. I've spent a lot of time in this section as I'm creating a bunch of templates for an older world-book that pre-dates templates. __________________ RPGAlaska.com - a community site for Alaskan gamers!

03-11-2009, 04:12 PM	#3
baakyocalder Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Sacramento metro, California	Re: Primary - Secondary - Background Skills Primary, Secondary and Background skills and the implied definitions first appeared in GURPS 3e. To my knowledge, they first appeared in GURPS Wizards. Before Wizards, there were suggested attributes, advantages, disadvantages and skills in GURPS worldbooks, giving you guidelines but less specificity on how to build the character. Keep in mind that templates are optional in GURPS. How a NAVY Seal is built in GURPS Seals in Vietnam is one interpretation of what a SEAL should be. Templates cost the same as creating the character ala carte, but they speed play up by giving you parameters. Primary skills are those skill most relevant to the occupation or race. These should be at 12+ or 14+; the higher skill level is for combat skills. Secondary skills are skills a character should have, but which aren't the most important skills. They should be skill 11+. Background skills are skills you'd expect someone in the group to possess some training in, but less than in the primary and secondary skills. B448 goes into more detail in using templates, but if you understand them as a quick guide to a character type, they should be easy to use in any setting. __________________ Currently Running: Without Number family games which use a lot of GURPS material for details when the players start asking(online, sporadically) Waiting For: Schedule Sanity to Play Car Wars and my Fnordcon special alt Car Wars cards!

03-11-2009, 04:43 PM	#4
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Primary - Secondary - Background Skills Don't get too hung up on absolute skill levels, though. It's entirely acceptable for a background skill to be at 15 while a primary skill is a mere 12 . . . if, say, the template has DX 15 and IQ 10, and the skill at 15 is DX/Easy while the one at 12 is IQ/Very Hard. What's more important is relative skill level (here, DX+0 vs. IQ+2) and point investment (here, 1 point vs. 16 points). Plenty of published templates use relative level and points as the key distinctions. So another way of looking at it might be: Primary Skills: Skills without which you simply can't do the listed job or fill the intended dramatic role, often at attribute+2 level or higher. These skills should have the highest mean points per skill. Secondary Skills: Skills that it's hard to imagine not picking up – likely via extra lessons or practical experience – while doing the job or filling the role, often at attribute+1 level or higher. Background Skills: Common hobbies, interests, and sidelines toward which people in the job or role gravitate. These skills should have the lowest mean points per skill, usually just a point, which gives from attribute-3 to attribute level. In all cases, factor in advantages that boost skills, too. A businessman template that includes Business Acumen might well spend just a point or two on primary skills, but the cost of Business Acumen ought to be factored into points-per-skill comparisons, and the bonus from it should be considered when comparing relative skill levels. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

03-11-2009, 04:58 PM	#5
D-Man MIB Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Salt Lake City	Re: Primary - Secondary - Background Skills So then what I am to understand it that Primary, Secondary, and Background Skills are just titles that you might lump your skills into? The points to get them are not effected by said title. For example: Secondary Skill: Boating/TL 8 (Motorboat) DX-1 [1] -12 could just as easily be Primary Skill: Boating/TL 8 (Motorboat) DX-1 [1] -12 however, I just don't do motorboating very often so it's really secondary to what I normally do? Is this a fair interpretation of what I am to understand? Oh and by the way I understand very well that a template is just one interpretation or "guide" to make a character. Thanks for the friendly advice. __________________ I am a Level 1 Human with no Class.

03-11-2009, 04:59 PM	#6
cliff Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Anchorage, AK	Re: Primary - Secondary - Background Skills Correct, the skills are all the same, it's just broken up by how dependent on the skills that character archetype is. __________________ RPGAlaska.com - a community site for Alaskan gamers!

03-11-2009, 05:13 PM	#7
ericbsmith Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Binghamton, NY, USA. Near the river Styx in the 5th Circle.	Re: Primary - Secondary - Background Skills To illustrate the points made above, if you were making a "Barbarian" template you might give them Broadsword and Brawling as Primary Skills, because every Barbarian can fight. You'd then give them a choice of one of the Survival specialties for a Secondary Skill, because Barbarians can survive in the wilderness, though which wilderness is more central to the specific character than to being a Barbarian. For Background Skills you might give a choice between Carousing, Climbing, Hiking, and a few other skills; these skills fit the archetype but are not necessary to actually playing the archetype. __________________ Eric B. Smith GURPS Data File Coordinator GURPSLand I shall pull the pin from this healing grenade and... Kaboom-baya. Last edited by ericbsmith; 03-11-2009 at 05:20 PM.

03-11-2009, 05:28 PM	#8
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Primary - Secondary - Background Skills Yeah, these labels exist for "soft" reasons: To give template designers simple labels to refer to elsewhere in that template or another template ("Take another primary skill at one level lower," "Choose two primary skills from the plumber template," etc.). To help template designers communicate what they think is most important about the archetype. To help readers browsing templates for inspiration rather than actual use figure out what's most important about the archetype. To break up a mondo huge skill list into a few smaller lists that are easier on the eyes. There is no "hard" meaning to these labels whatsoever. They have no effect on rules, point costs, or anything else. In supplements, they're rarely so much as mentioned outside the section on templates. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

03-11-2009, 08:25 PM	#9
D-Man MIB Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Salt Lake City	Re: Primary - Secondary - Background Skills OK, crystal clear. Thanks for the help guys. This was a head scratcher for me for a few. (o: Dennis __________________ I am a Level 1 Human with no Class.