Elven bow as sig. gear not really worth it

[malloyd]

How much of this problem depends on the stat line for composite bows? I think we could make a good case for that line representing something as imaginary as an Elven bow and simply rule the two can't stack.

For a constant force (and hence ST requirement) the shorter the bow and/or draw length, the lower the total energy (and hence range and damage). The composition of the energy storage system shouldn't matter, so I'd expect composite bows to have the same range and damage figures as short bows, and both of them less than long bows. What composite construction will do for you is allow you to build a bow of that length with a higher force requirement, this would be a higher Min (and hence potential maximum) ST. I guess a composite bow could be lighter than a shortbow of the same ST too.

Since that isn't even close to how GURPS Composite Bows behave, I suspect a coolness factor may have been involved. Though the composite bow edge does appear in 2e and thus predate Horseclans right?

[Kromm]

The composite bow in the rules traces its roots to Man to Man (1985), in fact. The only real changes over the years were in the range stats, and these changes happened because the rules for all ranged weapons changed. The composite bow wasn't changed to become cooler relative to other weapons.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Which was attempted, by the way, but defied a playtest full of game designers and writers to sort out (I refer to the GURPS Basic Set, Fourth Edition playtest).

The bar was probably set too high. It probably needs about the precision level of deciding how severe a Delusion is, or whether an Ally as extraordinary powers.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The composite bow in the rules traces its roots to Man to Man (1985), in fact. The only real changes over the years were in the range stats, and these changes happened because the rules for all ranged weapons changed. The composite bow wasn't changed to become cooler relative to other weapons.

I tried expanding it out a bit here
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=49811

Disregard the optional rules portion, it was a failure.

Ultimately, regardless of what the bow is made of, it doesnt change the fact that its just an energy storage and release device. Composite bows simply capitalize on the fact that somethings are harder to compress than to stretch, and vice versa.

The myriad of materials (and their mechanical properties) are just too numerous and varied to be modeled in a single statline I would assume.

Nymdok

[Kromm]

One could take this point of view:

Currently, at 1 point per 50% of average campaign starting money, Signature Gear 2 [2] gives stuff worth 100% of starting cash, on top of cash. In effect, then, for 1/5 the price of Comfortable [10], someone with Average wealth gets the same boost in stuff as if he had taken Comfortable, as long as he accepts the boost in the form of plot-protected gear. One could extend this thinking. A possible reinvention of Signature Gear would be:

1. Buy your wealth level normally and note its starting money. Example: Sig Sigson is a TL3 warrior with Struggling wealth. This costs him -10 points (a disadvantage) and gives him just $500 in cash.
2. Select a higher wealth level and note its point cost and starting money. Example: Sig wants cool gear commensurate with that of a knight, who would be a Status 2 individual with a wealth level of Wealthy. Wealthy costs 20 points and gives $5,000 in cash.
3. Find the point-cost difference between these wealth levels, divide that difference by 5, and pay that many points for Signature Gear. Example: The difference in cost is 20 - (-10) = 30 points, so Sig pays 30/5 = 6 points for Signature Gear.
4. Find the starting-money difference between the wealth levels, note that with your Signature Gear advantage, and take up to that many $ in plot-protected gear. Example: The difference in cash is $5,000 - $500 = $4,500, so Sig notes Signature Gear ($4,500) [6] and is glad his GM didn't charge him 9 points for this.

This way, some would-be elven bow owner who has Average wealth and wants a $15,300 bow could just get Signature Gear ($19,000) [6] – which would be Signature Gear ($19,500) [8] for Sig. Those who want to mess with intermediate levels could do so, too, I suppose.

I guess intermediate levels are crucial. Those who want $100,000,000 starships at TL10 could take either Signature Gear ($49,950,000) [15] or Signature Gear ($499,950,000) [20], but might want in-between levels. So extend the Wealth chart:

×1.5 for 5 points
×2 for 10 points
×3 for 15 points
×5 for 20 points
×10 for 25 points
×20 for 30 points
×40 for 35 points
×60 for 40 points
×80 for 45 points
×100 for 50 points
×200 for 55 points
×400 for 60 points
×600 for 65 points
×800 for 70 points
×1,000 for 75 points
×2,000 for 80 points
×4,000 for 85 points
×6,000 for 90 points
×8,000 for 95 points
×10,000 for 100 points

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Firearms are *real* therefore must have *real* prices.

So?

Elven Bows are *fictional* and they were made up on purpose to give archers some "special bow" to buy, therefore must have *balanced* prices.

Why?

Why does fiction need to make sense and reality doesn't, it seems very unrealistic.

I guess you take the view that the difference between fiction and reality is that fiction needs to make sense further than most.

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Currently, at 1 point per 50% of average campaign starting money, Signature Gear 2 [2] gives stuff worth 100% of starting cash, on top of cash. In effect, then, for 1/5 the price of Comfortable [10], someone with Average wealth gets the same boost in stuff as if he had taken Comfortable, as long as he accepts the boost in the form of plot-protected gear. One could extend this thinking. A possible reinvention of Signature Gear would be:

This is more or less what I was working on last night when I got home. A relationship between wealth levels, starting income and point expenditure. Of course the game designer's version was way better than mine.

For items with no appreciable extraordinary effect that are super expensive, I'd probably just consider them the same price as the basic item, like the $4 million diamond-hilted dagger someone mentioned. The item may be $4 million to other people, but to the character the diamond is worthless since he will never sell it or gain the dollar value in wealth from it.

[Kromm]

Well, note that the extended Wealth chart isn't necessarily so great. It's the "easy to work with" version. A "fair" version would be more like:

×1.5 for 5 points
×2 for 10 points
×3 for 15 points
×5 for 20 points
×10 for 25 points
×20 for 30 points
×30 for 35 points
×45 for 40 points
×70 for 45 points
×100 for 50 points
×160 for 55 points
×250 for 60 points
×400 for 65 points
×630 for 70 points
×1,000 for 75 points
×1,600 for 80 points
×2,500 for 85 points
×4,000 for 90 points
×6,300 for 95 points
×10,000 for 100 points

[Kromm]

And just to add to confusion, were I presenting this in a book, I'd compromise between "easy to work with" and "fair" like so:

×1.5 for 5 points
×2 for 10 points
×3 for 15 points
×5 for 20 points
×10 for 25 points
×20 for 30 points
×30 for 35 points
×50 for 40 points
×70 for 45 points
×100 for 50 points
×150 for 55 points
×250 for 60 points
×400 for 65 points
×600 for 70 points
×1,000 for 75 points
×1,500 for 80 points
×2,500 for 85 points
×4,000 for 90 points
×6,000 for 95 points
×10,000 for 100 points

[Bruno]

As long as you're tinkering with Wealth Levels, you could make it so that each level is 5 points and read it off the Speed/Range table, zeroing it to the 1 yard line...

That might be a bit radical :)