Feints, TA

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Pun comprehension failure.

You wanted to know what realistic examples of this stuff was. I had just given you a nicely detailed post. So, "What am I? Chopped liver?"

For your convenience

A ruse is just a basic trick, beating your opponent's yomi layer. When I played DoA, I usually used Jan Lee, known for his combos, and once my opponent was used to the rhythme of my attacks, I would break them up and throw a grapple in the middle. It's about out-smarting your opponent, using your wits and knowledge of tactics rather than the flexibility and precision of your wrist. Another good example might be using your opponents retreats and knowing how he moves his blade so that when you next attack, his blade would bounce off a wall or outcropping he hasn't noticed yet, giving you the opening you need. Or perhaps you merely watch the flow of his attacks, force him into his pattern, and then break that pattern to slide your blade through the opening you'd spotted before. All of this rely on smarts, rather than agility.

Acrobatic feints and dodges that aren't cinematic? Capoeira is a real style with real benefits, and several other styles (like drunken styles) behave in a similar fashion. Mostly, they involve non-conventional motion, throwing your opponent off because you're "not fighting right" and breaking his usual assumptions. Someone doing a handstand and spinning to kick you is flashy, a waste of motion and so absurd you'd never expect anyone to do it, which is exactly what the Capoeira guy is counting on.

I don't know what you mean by a substituted feint.

When we're talking realistic tactics rather than cinematic tactics, we're often discussing a shift of tone, rather than an elimination of possibilities. Even the most absurd wuxia DBZ nonsense has at least a kernel of truth to it, usually vastly overblown to make the point in a very obvious fashion. In a swashbuckling flick or a wuxia novel, the feint or ruse is so astonishingly clever that everyone sees what it is. The beat is a powerful move that shatters swords and sends people reeling. The acrobatic dodge is a flying leap into the air, putting a finger against your opponent's blade to leap again, and sail over your opponents head. In real life, a feint is a jerk to one side and then a stab to the other. A ruse is a magician's trick, keeping someone's eye on your fist while you attack with your foot. A beat is a tap of blade to blade, just enough to knock it out of alignment. An acrobatic dodge is a surprising and unconventional display of agility. In real life, martial arts is very, very subtle.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

You wanted to know what realistic examples of this stuff was. I had just given you a nicely detailed post. So, "What am I? Chopped liver?"

For your convenience

Okay, I guess it's just my disbelief regarding the more wildish claims of capoeira practitioners.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Which still sounds pretty abstract to me. We used to show the specific Arm Locks chosen. We never succeeded in describing acrobatic dodges other than the silly ones (backflips, over-the-blade jumps, and that's probably it).

What you do in the privacy of your own home . . . that's your business. But the game is abstract, yeah. Who knows or cares what every last roll and modifier means? Not me. I just know that I have no trouble believing that a guy trained in circus tricks and gymnastics (Acrobatics) – one whose life hangs on grabbing the other trapeze in a split second, and who can bend at 90° from the waist – can probably do some unspecified thing, doubtless nicely timed and very fluid, that would give him an edge at ducking a punch over some speed-shooter with equally good reflexes (Basic Speed) but no circus background. Shoot, maybe he just leans aside really fast without falling over; that's hardly silly.

I think the problem here is more with assuming that Acrobatics (1) must be flashy and can't simply represent better flexibility and timing and (2) is the skill of people other than serious athletes with a circus or gymnastics background, or at least a background in one of a handful of martial arts that roll that way. This is mostly because PCs seem to have Acrobatics all the time, even when it doesn't fit their background, and because players love to describe what it means in a flashy way.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

What you do in the privacy of your own home . . . that's your business. But the game is abstract, yeah. Who knows or cares what every last roll and modifier means? Not me. I just know that I have no trouble believing that a guy trained in circus tricks and gymnastics (Acrobatics) – one whose life hangs on grabbing the other trapeze in a split second, and who can bend at 90° from the waist – can probably do some unspecified thing, doubtless nicely timed and very fluid, that would give him an edge at ducking a punch over some speed-shooter with equally good reflexes (Basic Speed) but no circus background. Shoot, maybe he just leans aside really fast without falling over; that's hardly silly.

Ouch.
I have a suspicion that today I'm highly annoying and counterproductive on the forum. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think the problem here is more with assuming that Acrobatics (1) must be flashy and can't simply represent better flexibility and timing and (2) is the skill of people other than serious athletes with a circus or gymnastics background, or at least a background in one of a handful of martial arts that roll that way. This is mostly because PCs seem to have Acrobatics all the time, even when it doesn't fit their background, and because players love to describe what it means in a flashy way.

Hmm, now it makes much more sense. Worse yet, it seems that I've been one of the people who see it that way.

People, I'm just sorry. I don't know what to say.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Ouch.
I have a suspicion that today I'm highly annoying and counterproductive on the forum. Sorry.

Hmm, now it makes much more sense. Worse yet, it seems that I've been one of the people who see it that way.

People, I'm just sorry. I don't know what to say.

Not that I want to encourage your OCD or anything, but I've never seen your commentary as antagonistic so much as exhaustive: you really want to know everything, down to the deepest detail. Hence your post as FAQ Keeper, hmm?

Sometimes it's useful to think about these things and discuss them openly. As long as you're not rude about it (and you haven't been), you're fine

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

sentry removal probably stacks two or three turns of Evaluate on top of this

No, it doesn't. Evaluate and Telegraphic Attack do not stack.

I was under the impression that AoA (Determined) and Telegraphic Attack didn't stack either, but I must have gotten that confused with AoA (Strong) and extra effort for extra damage.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Not that I want to encourage your OCD or anything, but I've never seen your commentary as antagonistic so much as exhaustive: you really want to know everything, down to the deepest detail. Hence your post as FAQ Keeper, hmm?

Exasperating, as far as I recall, is the word once used to describe. Yeah, I'm detail-obsessed like that. The fact that I see the system/rules as a tool for simulation makes it even more alien (barbaric?) in the eyes of roll-and-shouters, casual gamers, storytellers etc. Then again simulationists are a big chunk of the GURPS population.

Regarding becoming a Keeper, it was more like this:
I'm reading, analyzing and memorizing those Q&As anyway. The FAQ is orphaned. How about we do something about it. So I started the uFAQ. Then I basically asked for a promotion when given the chance. ;)
I still have no idea how most of the generic forum population reacted to that.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Sometimes it's useful to think about these things and discuss them openly. As long as you're not rude about it (and you haven't been), you're fine

Not being rude poses its own problem: banning me would be difficult. ;) (I really hope I don't need to explain the joke.)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

No, it doesn't. Evaluate and Telegraphic Attack do not stack.

I was under the impression that AoA (Determined) and Telegraphic Attack didn't stack either, but I must have gotten that confused with AoA (Strong) and extra effort for extra damage.

Well, they do stack with the proper Perk.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Well, they do stack with the proper Perk.

Which ones? Evaluate and TA? Or are you talking about AoA and Extra Effort... I'm aware of that last perk, but don't know any for Evaluate+TA...

[PK]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Which ones? Evaluate and TA? Or are you talking about AoA and Extra Effort... I'm aware of that last perk, but don't know any for Evaluate+TA...

Kromm okayed that one a while back, along with a few other Evaluate-specific perks. Too lazy to search, but I'm sure someone has it bookmarked...