Distance to Familiar limits?

[Not another shrubbery]

Gosh... that seems to turn a basic assumption of mine on its head. Don't Gadgets automatically have to be on or very near the character to be of use? I would not figure that Sense-Based would be a limitation for gadgets in general, but rather would be an enhancement, if allowed at all.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Gosh... that seems to turn a basic assumption of mine on its head. Don't Gadgets automatically have to be on or very near the character to be of use? I would not figure that Sense-Based would be a limitation for gadgets in general, but rather would be an enhancement, if allowed at all.

OTOH, Familiars are sorta-unique, like most Allies.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Gosh... that seems to turn a basic assumption of mine on its head. Don't Gadgets automatically have to be on or very near the character to be of use? I would not figure that Sense-Based would be a limitation for gadgets in general, but rather would be an enhancement, if allowed at all.

The catch is this: Gadgets get limitations for how vulnerable they are to physical harm (i.e., how targetable, durable, breakdown-prone, and reparable they are), how attractive they are to thieves (i.e., how obvious, tightly held, and immediately useful they are), and how replaceable they are. These concepts are, respectively, Breakable, Can Be Stolen, and Unique. What's crucial to note here is that they're totally separable. For instance, a completely unobvious and nigh unto unremovable item worn fully concealed under personal armor still gets the full rating for its own Breakable limitation; the Can Be Stolen part is rated separately, and of course isn't worth much in that example. What I'm claiming is that the same separability applies to abilities granted by a familiar: You get points off for the abilities relying on a vulnerable familiar (c. -30%), plus more points off for the abilities relying on a familiar that isn't always present (c. -10%).

Now "not always present" can be interpreted a dozen ways -- Accessibility, Environmental, gadget limitations, Sense-Based, etc. The point is, Can Be Stolen comes in many levels, from "easily snatched, will work for thief" at -40% all the way to "must be forcefully removed, won't work for thief" at -5%, and I'd say that a familiar being hard to grab because I have to tie you down and force you at swordpoint to summon it isn't any different from an artifact that's hard to grab because I have to tie you down, remove your armor, and pry it from your armpit piercing.

It just seems bizarre to me that "the item that grants this is over there somewhere, within earshot" would be less of a limitation than "the item that grants this is under my breastplate." In the first case, there's at least a chance of disabling the item without dealing with you, the owner, as you don't have it and can't protect it with your personal defenses. Thus, it seems to me that it's fair to read Can Be Stolen as including Can Be Kidnapped for familiars, and that Allies having some modicum of volition is a good enough excuse to justify any fuzziness in this equation.

Put yet another way, I could just break down familiar limitations like gadget ones, and I doubt then that anybody would argue:

Familiar Limitations

Traits bestowed by familiars have their usual point cost. You can give them any logical combination of modifiers, plus one or more of the special limitations below, not to exceed -40%.

Vulnerable

Variable

Your foes can incapacitate your familiar. Once incapacitated, it will cease to grant you its benefits. Add the following elements together to find the final limitation value.

Durability: The easier the familiar is to harm, the greater the limitation. Decide on its DR: 2 or less is -20%, 3-5 is -15%, 6-15 is -10%, 16-25 is -5%, and 26 or higher is 0%. An insubstantial familiar gets 0% automatically. If the familar's abilities cease merely because it's incapacitated (knocked out, mind-controlled, paralyzed, etc., but not killed), add another -5%.

Curability: You can normally heal a familiar like any other character. If you cannot, and it requires inconvenient time, effort, or expense to repair (like a golem) or resummon (like a demon that requires a human sacrifice), it is worth an additional -15%

Visibility: The familiar's Size Modifier and Stealth skill can allow it to hide, thereby avoiding harm while still aiding you. Subtract its Stealth skill from 10 (treating positive numbers as 0), add the difference to Size Modifier, and rate the sum as follows: -9 or less is 0%; -7 or -8 is -5%; -5 or -6 is -10%; -3 or -4 is -15%; -1 or -2 is -20%; and 0 or more -25%. An invisible familiar gets 0% automatically. For instance, a SM -3 house cat with Stealth 14 (10 - 14 = -4) would have a sum of -7, and give -5%.

Can Be Abducted

Variable

Your foes can kidnap your familiar, depriving you of the contact you need to gain benefits from it. The value of the limitation depends on how much contact is required, as the more contact you require, the easier your familiar is to isolate from you:

Familiar must be touching you, or in earshot, or in line of sight: -10%.
Two of the above conditions apply: -15%.
All three of these conditions apply: -20%.

Unique

-25%

You may only take this limitation in conjunction with Vulnerable or Can Be Abducted. Normally, you can replace a dead or kidnapped familiar -- although the GM may dock you earned points for abandoning an Ally. If the familiar is Unique, you cannot replace it! Character points spent for both Ally and any abilities it grants are lost for good if it's killed or otherwise permanently taken away.

A normal bat or cat then has something like -25% for Durability (DR 2 or less and susceptible to other effects) and -5% for Visibility (see example), plus the -10% version of Can Be Abducted. In most settings, such familiars are still curable, and new ones can be had if the old one dies. That's -40%.

[Kromm]

Other examples:

Animated Sword: This can be seen and destroyed, but not otherwise incapacitated. It's tough and readily repaired. It would be pointless if you had to hold onto it, but let's assume that it only helps if you can see and hear it, since it's supposed to be your personal bodyguard. That's DR 6-15, -10% + SM -4, -15% + Familiar must be in earshot and in line of sight, -15%. For a wizard who can just go shop at the Guild Store, it isn't Unique. -40%.

Cat: This can be seen, killed, and incapacitated, but is readily healed. It's most useful if it can scout ahead where it can be called but not seen or touched. That's DR 2 or less, -20% + Can be incapacitated, -5% + SM -3 and Stealth-14, -5% + Familiar must be touching you, or in earshot, or in line of sight, -10%. It isn't Unique. -40%.

Guardian Angel: This is a unique, invisible, intangible spirit. Nobody can see, hear, or touch it. The only drawback it has is that it can possibly be banished -- and if it is, then it's gone forever. That's Insubstantial, 0% + Can be incapacitated, -5% + Invisible, 0% + Unique, -25%. It doesn't qualify for Can Be Abducted. -30%.

Huge Bear: This can be seen, killed, and incapacitated, but it's tough and readily healed. It can't sit on your shoulder and you wouldn't carry it around. That's DR 3-5, -15% + Can be incapacitated, -5% + SM +1, -25% + Familiar must be touching you, or in earshot, or in line of sight, -10%. It isn't Unique. -55%, restricted to -40% for the cutoff.

(Yes, this means it's almost more disadvantageous than a cat -- the bear is less subtle and more likely to be seen and shot as dangerous. However, the bear is more costly as an Ally because it's also a capable fighter; this -40% strictly rates its value as a gadget.)

Invisible Spirit: It can't be seen or hurt in the physical world, but it can be incapacitated by things like Necromantic spells, and if it's sent away, you have to do somethint terrible to get it back. It isn't unique; minor demons and the like mostly don't seem to be in short supply. That's Insubstantial, 0% + Can be incapacitated, -5% + Inconvenient to resummon, -15% + Invisible, 0%. It doesn't qualify for Can Be Abducted or Unique. -20%.

[Anthony]

Incidentally, while it was for 3e, I wrote an article about this for pyramid some years ago; if you have a pyramid account it's here. Abilities that came from a familiar started at -10%, with additional limitations depending on the familiar.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It just seems bizarre to me that "the item that grants this is over there somewhere, within earshot" would be less of a limitation than "the item that grants this is under my breastplate." In the first case, there's at least a chance of disabling the item without dealing with you, the owner, as you don't have it and can't protect it with your personal defenses.

No argument with the comparison between "Granted by Familiar" and Gadgets... that was a half-realized thought underlying my original post to the thread [thanks for the breakdown, btw]. My problem arises in your creation of the Can Be Abducted limiter (analogous to Can Be Stolen), where you assume a proximity clause which apparently should likewise apply to gadgets in general. AIS, this is counter to my understanding of how gadgets were supposed to work. It seems apparent to me that if you allow a gadget user (or familiar owner) to choose the degree of proximity the enabler must maintain to grant its abilities, then you have increased his flexibility. A character who can decide whether his enabler will remain away from him (but within earshot, or LOS) OR tucked safely under his breastplate, looks to me like he should be paying a premium over a character who can only get his abilities if the Widget is on his person. You appear to acknowledge this with the "One, Two, or Three of {Touching; In earshot; In LOS}" construction. I guess my contention would be with the values... not so much the specific numbers, but the idea that the three conditions are equally limiting.