Shapeshifting and sleep

[vitruvian]

... no? Affliction: Alternate Form does NOT equal Alternate Form, otherwise the frog prince would just concentrate for 10 seconds and turn back to human form. It just changes his shape, period.

It may be under the control of the person with the Affliction rather than the target, but I would think that otherwise it has to follow all the regular rules for Alternate Form. E.g., it takes 10 turns for the change to take place unless Reduced Time was included, reverses if knocked out or killed without Once On, Stays On, and so on.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Bruno

... no? Affliction: Alternate Form does NOT equal Alternate Form, otherwise the frog prince would just concentrate for 10 seconds and turn back to human form. It just changes his shape, period.

Sure, Affliction AF removes the subject's control; the advantage afflicted is "on" for the duration - but the knockout "terminal condition" inherent in AF is, in terms of Powers pp. 154-155, an Involuntary Deactivation, not a Voluntary Deactivation.

I can't think of too many other situations where this would be relevant - I was going to argue that Afflicted Invisibility doesn't circumvent the innate flaw of its being vulnerable to See Invisible, but that example admittedly doesn't fit. Afflicted magical advantage immune to Static or Neutralize for that source? Or to a Negated Advantage Affliction for that specific advantage? Again, not quite parallel, and besides, Static on an Afflicted magical (or whatever) advantage would most likely take out the Affliction if not the advantage. If you can follow that bit of twisted reasoning.

I just assumed hostile afflicted advantages have as many traits of the vanilla advantage as possible, minus control by the subject. I guess it's a GM call, and not one that's going to come up very darn often, so I'll just shut up about it. I've got much more important questions and musings about Shapeshifting to spend my keystrokes on. :)

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Can anyone think of any example in fiction or myth where a shifter automatically shifted once asleep or unconscious?

In Heinlein's _Job, A Comedy of Justice_, the protagonist meets a minor demon whose mortal guise falls away when she sleeps.

Several multi-form or composite superheros and villains (Hulk, Firestorm, Starhawk, Captain Marvel, Darkhawk, Sleepwalker) at various points in their careers revert, change, or split when the active form falls asleep or is knocked out.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

Sure, Affliction AF removes the subject's control; the advantage afflicted is "on" for the duration - but the knockout "terminal condition" inherent in AF is, in terms of Powers pp. 154-155, an Involuntary Deactivation, not a Voluntary Deactivation.

Powers seems to say that this is not the case. Under Unconsciousness (p155), it notes that Afflictions, as well as other abilities that cause lasting (but not necessarily permanent) effects, do not expire due to [the user's] losing consciousness, but must run their course unless negated. I think that the target's lack of control implies that his consciousness state has no bearing on the duration.

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Several multi-form or composite superheros and villains (..., Captain Marvel, ...) at various points in their careers revert, change, or split when the active form falls asleep or is knocked out.

Captain Marvel? Huh... Which one, and when was that (if you can recall particulars)?

[vitruvian]

but must run their course unless negated.

Sure, but Shapeshifting comes with a number of conditions that inherently negate it, unless bought with enhancements. I don't think anybody thought the consciousness of the Afflicter would trigger reversion, anyway.

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Sleep is not unconsciousness under the rules. Unconsciousness is a consequence of transient (and possibly permanent) brain damage due to hypoxia, poisoning, trauma, etc. It's a wholly unresponsive state in which the victim cannot exercise appreciable conscious or subconscious control over himself. Sleep is a natural brain state. Someone who is sleeping still receives sensory input, and possesses a fair degree of control; for instance, he can avoid wetting himself, train himself to awaken to certain sounds, and even influence his dreams.

Yes, doctor, it's pretty clear that sleep, unconsciousness and death are three different, separate states and no one would argue against that. What matters here is how sleep affects Alternate Form in game mechanics.

Powers (p.109) rules, "[If your Alternate Form is enhanced with Once On Stays On, s]leep, unconsciousness, and death don't force you to change back." From this sentence, it's most natural to assume that sleep as well as unconsciousness and death dispels Alternate Form without Once On Stays On.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Sure, but Shapeshifting comes with a number of conditions that inherently negate it, unless bought with enhancements.

Yes, but the idea that the referenced sections in Powers seem to support is that Afflictions follow their own rules for determining their duration state and deactivation, which may be different than those used for the afflicted trait.

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Sleep seems to be the biggest part of the package, so I guess it would be a fairly hefty percentage of OOSO... maybe +30%-40%.

That sounds like a good idea. That's equivalent to adding Accessibility: Sleep Only, -20-40% on OOSO, -50% using the Limited Enhancements rules (p.B111). Accessibility: Sleep Only looks to be worth around -20% (-40% seems a bit too generous), so pricing "Once On Stays On While Asleep But Turns Off Once Unconscious (OOSOWABTOOU)" -- sorry, but I don't come up with a better name -- at +40% seems reasonable.

Then how about the "90% of the alternate racial template cost" part of Alternate Form? Under the RAW, OOSO raises this value to 100%, so with OOSOWABTOOU, the cost will fall somewhere between 90-100%. Maybe 98%, assuming Accessibility: Sleep Only is worth -20%?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Powers (p.109) rules, "[If your Alternate Form is enhanced with Once On Stays On, s]leep, unconsciousness, and death don't force you to change back." From this sentence, it's most natural to assume that sleep as well as unconsciousness and death dispels Alternate Form without Once On Stays On.

OOSO is a general modifier for all "physical transformations that end if you're knocked out or killed." The usual suspects are Elastic Skin, Shadow Form, and Shapeshifting, but pp. 17-19 suggest other options, specifically any form of Chameleon, elemental meta-traits, Growth, Hermaphromorph, Insubstantiality, Invisibility, Metabolism Control, Regeneration, Regrowth, Shrinking, Stretching, or Switchable body parts that naturally or through modifiers may shut down when unconscious or killed. A few cases also shut down when asleep, so "sleep" was added to the list to avoid the need for a special modifier for those few abilities. This doesn't imply that everything that OOSO can be added to shuts down when you sleep, though -- that's pointing the arrow in the wrong direction! The advantage description determines how the advantage works, not the wording in an obscure enhancement.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

What matters here is how sleep affects Alternate Form in game mechanics.

And the answer is "it doesn't." The Shapeshifting advantage is quite unambiguous: "knocked out or killed." Neither is "asleep."

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by Kromm

OOSO is a general modifier for all "physical transformations that end if you're knocked out or killed." The usual suspects are Elastic Skin, Shadow Form, and Shapeshifting, but pp. 17-19 suggest other options, specifically any form of Chameleon, elemental meta-traits, Growth, Hermaphromorph, Insubstantiality, Invisibility, Metabolism Control, Regeneration, Regrowth, Shrinking, Stretching, or Switchable body parts that naturally or through modifiers may shut down when unconscious or killed.

Sorry, doctor, my wording was unclear. I'm aware of that, but I chose to say "Alternate Form" instead of "abilities that let you perform some forms of physical transformation" because the OP specifically mentions shapeshifting.

Originally Posted by Kromm

A few cases also shut down when asleep, so "sleep" was added to the list to avoid the need for a special modifier for those few abilities. This doesn't imply that everything that OOSO can be added to shuts down when you sleep, though -- that's pointing the arrow in the wrong direction! The advantage description determines how the advantage works, not the wording in an obscure enhancement.

And the answer is "it doesn't." The Shapeshifting advantage is quite unambiguous: "knocked out or killed." Neither is "asleep."

Thank you for the answer, doctor. That sounds very clear. Objection withdrawn. Just out of curiosity, would you please take some examples of physical transformation advantages that deactivate once asleep if not enhanced with OOSO?