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Old 04-23-2008, 06:19 PM   #21
sjmdw45
 
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Rapid Strikes aren't bad but the penalty on them is limiting. TBaM halves the penalty, so a Martial Artist (MA) with high skill could conceivably make 3 Rapid Stirkes at -6. Still a MA with skill 17 is attacking at 11 on each attack and if they want to aim at a particular target things get worse. A mage can use Blur or turn Invisible and then strike. Of course, the MA can still fight the mage provided he/she has taken Blind Fighting.
IMHO, Rapid Strikes are great for Weapon Masters because for 24 points (+6 to skill) you get TWO extra attacks AND +3 to parry.

-Max
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Old 04-23-2008, 06:31 PM   #22
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

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Originally Posted by griffin
While I have no problem generating any number of other character types - mages, swordsman, thieves, archers, etc. - the cinematic martial artists are coming up well above the point budget of 250 points. It's pretty trivial building a killer mage with those points and they have quite a few options. Building an effective ninja is proving much more difficult. Fitting such a character among the others in this fantasy special ops team is especially difficult. They have less options than other characters. In order to be effective the ninja really needs very high scores on a few skills.
Aha, so "martial artist" in this context means "sneaky ninja"? Because I can make a pretty combat-effective martial artist (swordsman, as you note) on 150 points. 20 points on Weapon Master, 60 points on weapon skill, add some ST and HT! and maybe some styles from Martial Arts. Of course he's not very good at anything outside of combat since most skills are not based on ST or HT.

I'm not sure why your ninjas cost so much. IIRC, chi skills are pretty diverse in terms of the attributes they're based off of, aren't they? Invisibility Art is IQ, Power Blow is Will, etc., no? There's probably some optimization you can do there, but the main thing a martial artist needs is strong combat skills, and those are competitive with magic in terms of cost/utility ratios.

-Max
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Certainly, a bog-standard DF swashbuckler is quite scary enough for me:
The Dashing Rose
250 points

ST 11 [10]; DX 15 [100]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 13 [30].
Damage 1d/2d-1*; BL 24 lbs.; HP 11 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 13 [0]; Basic Speed 7.00 [0]; Basic Move 7 [0].

Advantages: Combat Reflexes [15]; Enhanced Dodge 1 [15]; Enhanced Parry 3 (Broadword) [15]; Extra Attack 1 [25]; Luck [15]; Striking ST 2 [10]; Weapon Bond (Broadsword) [1]; Weapon Master (Broadsword) [20].

Disadvantages: Code of Honor (Pirate's) [-5]; Lecherousness (12) [-15]; Obsession (12; "Become the best swordsman in the world!") [-10]; Overconfidence (12) [-5]; Sense of Duty (Companions) [-5]; Vow (Never refuse a challenge to combat) [-10].

Skills: Acrobatics-15 [4]; Brawling-16 [2]; Broadsword-20 [20]; Carousing-13 [1]; Climbing-14 [1]; Connoisseur (Wine)-9 [1]; Fast-Draw (Knife)-16† [1]; Fast-Draw (Rose)-16† [1]; Fast-Draw (Sword)-16† [1]; Gambling-9 [1]; Intimidation-9 [1]; Jumping-15 [1]; Seamanship-10 [1]; Sex Appeal-12 [1]; Stealth-14 [1]; Streetwise-10 [2]; Thrown Weapon (Knife)-16 [2]; Wrestling-15 [2]

* Includes Striking ST.
† Includes +1 for Combat Reflexes.
He can attack twice at full skill, or three times if he makes two of those attacks at -3 for Rapid Strike (halved for Weapon Master, remember). He does so at skill 20, +1 for the Weapon Bond, or 21 . . . meaning 21/21, or 21/18/18. Lots of room for Deceptive Attack and hit locations there! He hits as if his ST were 13, so with a broadsword -- which gets +2 per die of damage for WM -- that's 2d+4 per hit.

On the defense, his basic broadsword Parry gets +1 for Combat Reflexes and +3 for Enhanced Parry, bringing it to 17. He can do this multiple times at 17, 15, 13, etc., thanks to WM. His basic Dodge is 12 with the +1 for Combat Reflexes and +1 for Enhanced Dodge, and he can retreat once a turn to get a 15, and try Acrobatics (at 15) to get a 14 another time. Thus, his defenses are 17, 15, 15, 14, etc., and fairly solid.

He has Luck to cover screw-ups, like missed defenses and resistance rolls. If he's disarmed, he can still pitch knives, brawl, grapple, and generally mess around. And he isn't even boring -- he has something like a personality, a few just-for-fun skills, and would probably be a laugh to play.

This guy could probably slaughter three mooks per turn and engage several more, drawing fire off the rest of the party (unlike, say, an invisible wizard). I've seen few wizards who could really rival this amount of sheer combat potency on a turn-for-turn basis.

PS: And while this guy is solidly a "cinematic martial artist" -- what with four major cinematic traits (Enhanced Dodge, Enhanced Parry, Extra Attack, and Striking ST) justified by a fifth -- he doesn't rely on the oft-derided chi skills. Not that these would suck.
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Certainly, a bog-standard DF swashbuckler is quite scary enough for me:
The Dashing Rose
250 points

ST 11 [10]; DX 15 [100]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 13 [30].
Damage 1d/2d-1*; BL 24 lbs.; HP 11 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 13 [0]; Basic Speed 7.00 [0]; Basic Move 7 [0].

Advantages: Combat Reflexes [15]; Enhanced Dodge 1 [15]; Enhanced Parry 3 (Broadword) [15]; Extra Attack 1 [25]; Luck [15]; Striking ST 2 [10]; Weapon Bond (Broadsword) [1]; Weapon Master (Broadsword) [20].

Disadvantages: Code of Honor (Pirate's) [-5]; Lecherousness (12) [-15]; Obsession (12; "Become the best swordsman in the world!") [-10]; Overconfidence (12) [-5]; Sense of Duty (Companions) [-5]; Vow (Never refuse a challenge to combat) [-10].

Skills: Acrobatics-15 [4]; Brawling-16 [2]; Broadsword-20 [20]; Carousing-13 [1]; Climbing-14 [1]; Connoisseur (Wine)-9 [1]; Fast-Draw (Knife)-16† [1]; Fast-Draw (Rose)-16† [1]; Fast-Draw (Sword)-16† [1]; Gambling-9 [1]; Intimidation-9 [1]; Jumping-15 [1]; Seamanship-10 [1]; Sex Appeal-12 [1]; Stealth-14 [1]; Streetwise-10 [2]; Thrown Weapon (Knife)-16 [2]; Wrestling-15 [2]

* Includes Striking ST.
† Includes +1 for Combat Reflexes.
He can attack twice at full skill, or three times if he makes two of those attacks at -3 for Rapid Strike (halved for Weapon Master, remember). He does so at skill 20, +1 for the Weapon Bond, or 21 . . . meaning 21/21, or 21/18/18. Lots of room for Deceptive Attack and hit locations there! He hits as if his ST were 13, so with a broadsword -- which gets +2 per die of damage for WM -- that's 2d+4 per hit.

On the defense, his basic broadsword Parry gets +1 for Combat Reflexes and +3 for Enhanced Parry, bringing it to 17. He can do this multiple times at 17, 15, 13, etc., thanks to WM. His basic Dodge is 12 with the +1 for Combat Reflexes and +1 for Enhanced Dodge, and he can retreat once a turn to get a 15, and try Acrobatics (at 15) to get a 14 another time. Thus, his defenses are 17, 15, 15, 14, etc., and fairly solid.

He has Luck to cover screw-ups, like missed defenses and resistance rolls. If he's disarmed, he can still pitch knives, brawl, grapple, and generally mess around. And he isn't even boring -- he has something like a personality, a few just-for-fun skills, and would probably be a laugh to play.

This guy could probably slaughter three mooks per turn and engage several more, drawing fire off the rest of the party (unlike, say, an invisible wizard). I've seen few wizards who could really rival this amount of sheer combat potency on a turn-for-turn basis.

PS: And while this guy is solidly a "cinematic martial artist" -- what with four major cinematic traits (Enhanced Dodge, Enhanced Parry, Extra Attack, and Striking ST) justified by a fifth -- he doesn't rely on the oft-derided chi skills. Not that these would suck.
I have wondered exactly how think a wall a barbarian with a pole arm could break through with power blow and breaking blow
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:04 PM   #25
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

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Originally Posted by Molokh
Aportation, anybody?

I assume you mean Apportation? At least it is resisted by Will, so the martial artist typically has a pretty good chance. They should have high Will and I think Mental Strength should help with this also.
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:56 PM   #26
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Certainly, a bog-standard DF swashbuckler is quite scary enough for me:
[INDENT][INDENT]The Dashing Rose
250 points
OK, let me be more specific. What I'm looking for specifically in a cinematic martial artist is the Trained by a Master asian fighting arts style character - staff wielding monk, samuri swordsman, ninja with shuriken and katana (yes I know that many not be the historical blade of choice), or similar style character.

Primarily I'm looking at the Trained by a Master and the cinematic skills it grants. I'd like to see a build using the cinematic templates that includes Trained by a Master.

I've already built good swordsman and swashbucklers. They are well rounded and have ranged attacks, climbing skills, acrobatics, stealth, shadowing, boating, knowledge, Hidden Lore skills, etc. What I need now is a Trained by a Master cinematic asian fighting arts type. Chi-based is definitely what I want. I'm looking for a cinematic martial artist is the Trained by a Master asian fighting arts style character - staff wielding monk, samuri swordsman, ninja with shuriken and katana (yes I know that many not be the historical blade of choice). I want a character that illustrates the utility of Trained by a Master and the cinematic skills it grants. Build something using the cinematic templates that includes Trained by a Master. I'm trying to get such a martial artist in 250 point budget that can have some other skills that would fit them into the party with standard skills all members should have as well as special capabilities they bring to the table.

Quote:
He can attack twice at full skill, or three times if he makes two of those attacks at -3 for Rapid Strike (halved for Weapon Master, remember). He does so at skill 20, +1 for the Weapon Bond, or 21 . . . meaning 21/21, or 21/18/18. Lots of room for Deceptive Attack and hit locations there! He hits as if his ST were 13, so with a broadsword -- which gets +2 per die of damage for WM -- that's 2d+4 per hit.
I thought that all three attacks were at -3 for Rapid strike, which would be at 18. Still very good but not at his full skill.

Regardless, it's not the swordsman I have issue with, it's primarily the esoteric TbaM abilities which seem weak and lack utility relative to the high-cost, especially with TbaM's cost.

Quote:
PS: And while this guy is solidly a "cinematic martial artist" -- what with four major cinematic traits (Enhanced Dodge, Enhanced Parry, Extra Attack, and Striking ST) justified by a fifth -- he doesn't rely on the oft-derided chi skills. Not that these would suck.
In GURPS terms sure. But I don't think gamers coming from other systems would necessarily think that if they were looking to play a martial artist.
The martial artist has TbaM and good DX and IQ. Abilities are based on Will also. Despite your previous assertion that I'm just looking at it from terms of damage dealing capabilities, I'm not. Due to the scenario, that's a large part of what I'm looking at. I need to be able to show case a number of different character types and want to illustrate that GURPS can do cinematic gaming.

Last edited by griffin; 04-24-2008 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:28 PM   #27
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
I thought that all three attacks were at -3 for Rapid strike, which would be at 18. Still very good but not at his full skill.
No. He has Extra Attack 1, which gives him two attacks per turn at full skill. He can turn one of those attacks into a Rapid Strike, which gives two attacks at -3 each. So 21/18/18 is correct.
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
OK, let me be more specific. What I'm looking for specifically in a cinematic martial artist is the Trained by a Master asian fighting arts style character - staff wielding monk, samuri swordsman, ninja with shuriken and katana (yes I know that many not be the historical blade of choice), or similar style character.

Primarily I'm looking at the Trained by a Master and the cinematic skills it grants. I'd like to see a build using the cinematic templates that includes Trained by a Master.

I've already built good swordsman and swashbucklers. They are well rounded and have ranged attacks, climbing skills, acrobatics, stealth, shadowing, boating, knowledge, Hidden Lore skills, etc. What I need now is a Trained by a Master cinematic asian fighting arts type. Chi-based is definitely what I want. I'm looking for a cinematic martial artist is the Trained by a Master asian fighting arts style character - staff wielding monk, samuri swordsman, ninja with shuriken and katana (yes I know that many not be the historical blade of choice). I want a character that illustrates the utility of Trained by a Master and the cinematic skills it grants. Build something using the cinematic templates that includes Trained by a Master. I'm trying to get such a martial artist in 250 point budget that can have some other skills that would fit them into the party with standard skills all members should have as well as special capabilities they bring to the table.



I thought that all three attacks were at -3 for Rapid strike, which would be at 18. Still very good but not at his full skill.

Regardless, it's not the swordsman I have issue with, it's primarily the esoteric TbaM abilities which seem weak and lack utility relative to the high-cost, especially with TbaM's cost.
So what you're saying is that you're interested in the 'Oriental-type' martial artists -- the ones that use Trained by a Master advantage. You want to see how an effective character of that type can be constructed, involving things like the cinematic TbaM range of skills, and shuriken, katanas, and the like. You want the Chi-based stuff. Is that right?
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:16 PM   #29
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Regardless, it's not the swordsman I have issue with, it's primarily the esoteric TbaM abilities which seem weak and lack utility relative to the high-cost, especially with TbaM's cost.
Ah, I see. That's partly because they are weak, unless you've bought up IQ for other reasons. (Power Blow-12 is good for pretty much nothing, in combat.) In my mind, the main benefit of Trained by a Master is not the chi skills, it's the cheap parries, rapid strikes, and (potentially) access to chambara rules in Martial Arts. The chi skills are probably worth dropping a few points into, or more if there's an appropriate Talent, but they're not the main point of TBaM.

Conversely, if you're trying to make an unarmed fighter who's competitive with a swordsman built on the same number of choices, you have a couple of choices:

1.) Accept that unarmed combat simply isn't as deadly as armed combat, and spend an extra 100 points on the unarmed fighter bringing him up to par. (This is the approach you've used so far.)
2.) Give him access to more cinematic abilities, e.g. let him buy a 3d crushing Innate Attack (melee only).
3.) There might be something you could do with Judo if you buy it up to crazy levels. Say DX 13, HT! 13, Judo-25, and buy Arm Lock up to Judo+4 (29). You still won't kill things as fast as a guy with a sword but you could potentially be pretty deadly, and you'd have a crazy-high Parry.

-Max
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Old 04-24-2008, 12:09 AM   #30
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Rapid Strikes aren't bad but the penalty on them is limiting. TBaM halves the penalty, so a Martial Artist (MA) with high skill could conceivably make 3 Rapid Stirkes at -6. Still a MA with skill 17 is attacking at 11 on each attack and if they want to aim at a particular target things get worse. A mage can use Blur or turn Invisible and then strike. Of course, the MA can still fight the mage provided he/she has taken Blind Fighting.
Skill-17 is not what I consider appropriate for a 'cinematic martial artist', certainly not on 250+ points. In my fantasy game the only character with what I (and I expect my players would agree) consider a level of skill sufficient for this has Polearm-20 (he started at Polearm-18 at 150 points all up). Below that you just aren't that skilled for the reason you note - you can't soak multiple or major penalties without having to Telegraph (useless if you need a Deceptive Attack) or AOA. I'd expect a focused martial artist on 250 points (and below that I don't think many character builds feel very cinematic) to be able to do a Lethal Strike (-2) at the Vitals (-3) with a couple of levels of DA (-4) and still have at least an 11- to hit without having to do an AOA. IF you expect less of them, well, you'll get less from them.
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