Feint maneuver questions

[Usual Gamer]

A) In the Basic Rules, p 365, it is stated that the feint is a quick contest of Melee Weapon skills. The base skill of the attacker suffer the same penalties or bonuses as if he was doing a normal attack?
B) Is the base skill of the defendant that of ihs weapon, as if he was doing an attack? What if he has a shield?
C) It is said that the defendant can choose his best defensive skill, or his DX, but how does he know it is not a normal attack?

Thanks!

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Usual Gamer

A) In the Basic Rules, p 365, it is stated that the feint is a quick contest of Melee Weapon skills. The base skill of the attacker suffer the same penalties or bonuses as if he was doing a normal attack?

Yes, this is what I do.

B) Is the base skill of the defendant that of ihs weapon, as if he was doing an attack? What if he has a shield?
C) It is said that the defendant can choose his best defensive skill, or his DX, but how does he know it is not a normal attack?

C) He shouldn't but it's often hard to conceal the mechanics from PCs.
B) I wouldn't add DB, but Shield could be his best skill.

[Usual Gamer]

Thanks. What I understood from question B is: if the defendant has a sword with attack skill 14 (defense score 10), he would use 14 to defend. Is it right?
Could he have a bonus by retreating?

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Usual Gamer

Thanks. What I understood from question B is: if the defendant has a sword with attack skill 14 (defense score 10), he would use 14 to defend. Is it right?
Could he have a bonus by retreating?

I believe a feint is a straight contest of skill not a defense roll. So if you had Broadsword-14 and your opponent had DX 11, Broadsword-12, and Shield-12 you would roll against your Broadsword (14) and he would roll against a 12 (best skill or DX). If you roll a 10 (success by 4) and he rolls in 11 (success by 1) he's at -3 to his next defense roll.

[nanoboy]

Originally Posted by Usual Gamer

A) In the Basic Rules, p 365, it is stated that the feint is a quick contest of Melee Weapon skills. The base skill of the attacker suffer the same penalties or bonuses as if he was doing a normal attack?

Thanks!

Not as written, and I wouldn't do such a thing. A character engaged in a feint either uses up a precious turn or is in an all-out attack. That's penalty enough. But then, I have trouble convincing my players to use things like feint. They want to attack and get the battle over with, despite the fact that their opponents keep successfully defending. They'll get it some day.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by nanoboy

Not as written, and I wouldn't do such a thing. A character engaged in a feint either uses up a precious turn or is in an all-out attack. That's penalty enough. But then, I have trouble convincing my players to use things like feint. They want to attack and get the battle over with, despite the fact that their opponents keep successfully defending. They'll get it some day.

Generally I've played with number crunchers that would figure which tactic worked better. With the introduction of deceptive attack feints have been pretty scarce.

High skill should be used to either deceptive attack, feint, perform cool tricks (rapid strike comes to mind), or target locations depending on your target's skill.

With moderate skill against another moderate skill (14 vs 12) against decent defenses (skill 12 w/DB 2 shield = defense roll of 11) a feint can be pretty useful.

MA also introduced ranged feints. I'm guessing (haven't tried it yet) that thrown weapons have gotten a lot more powerful even though you have to figure in the to-hit penalties. A knife thrower w/skill 16 can aim (+4 aim) while you approach, wait till you're about 10 yds away, feint (16 + 4 aim - 4 range) against your DX/melee/shield skill (say 14ish), then throw. Given that a lot of opponents have a dodge/parry of 10+ you can improve the odds of hitting tremendously.

[HeroPenguin]

Originally Posted by Usual Gamer

C) It is said that the defendant can choose his best defensive skill, or his DX, but how does he know it is not a normal attack?

As I see it there are two approaches to this.

The first is to make sure you know all of your PCs' skill levels ahead of time, and then when you tell them he attacked (but really feinted) and you ask them to roll their defense, you don't need to pay attention to anything other than their roll, because you can compare it against their best combat skill directly and figure the contest results.

The second is to tell your players that they're being Feinted and trust them not to act with OOC knowledge. YMMV based on your group at how effective that is. Whether you announce the results before or after is pretty much irrelevant.

[Kromm]

When you announce the results is hugely relevant. Saying, "He won by 20" this turn means that the PC is liable to run away to avoid having to roll at -20. Saying, "He won by 20" on the following turn means that all the PC can do is opt to roll his Block at -20, his Dodge at -20, or his Parry at -20.

My own preference is to announce feints openly, but to handle them as simply "He feints" on the turn when they occur. Then, just before the attack that would benefit from the feint, roll the Quick Contest for the feint. Don't allow any interruptions (from Waits, etc.); this Quick Contest is simply displaced on the meta-game level, not taking place when it's rolled. That way, neither attacker nor defender knows how it came out until the instant they have to attack and defend, respectively. Which seems better to me.

Incidentally, the general mechanic for feints is "Person making the feint rolls against combat skill at no modifiers except those that modify DX or weapon skill in general, such as shock, bad footing, posture, or a crappy weapon. Person being feinted rolls against combat skill with only those modifiers as well; he doesn't roll against an active defense or apply defense modifiers. The target's best combat skill helps him resist, since his combat experience serves to warn him of deceptions."

[Usual Gamer]

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Person making the feint rolls against combat skill at no modifiers except those that modify DX or weapon skill in general, such as shock, bad footing, posture, or a crappy weapon. Person being feinted rolls against combat skill with only those modifiers as well; he doesn't roll against an active defense or apply defense modifiers. The target's best combat skill helps him resist, since his combat experience serves to warn him of deceptions."

Thanks a lot. I just would like to confirm if these modifiers count as well:
- Distractions and Afflictions in general
- Encumbrance (for a fencing weapon or unarmed)
- Partial visibility
Also:
- If the target's weapon is not ready to defend (unbalanced, p.ex.), does he have to use his DX or the skill from another weapon? If it is a flail its skill could never be used, right?
- The bonus may not count, but does the target have the right to retreat? Assuming he thinks he is being attacked, not feinted.
- If the attacker spent last turn in Evaluate, does he get the bonus for the feint roll?
Thanks again!

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Usual Gamer

- Distractions and Afflictions in general
- Encumbrance (for a fencing weapon or unarmed)
- Partial visibility

All of these are fully general DX/skill modifiers in the relevant circumstances, so they would count.

Originally Posted by Usual Gamer

- If the target's weapon is not ready to defend (unbalanced, p.ex.), does he have to use his DX or the skill from another weapon?

No. In fact, he doesn't even have to have a weapon to use his skill with it. As Martial Arts notes, you may use your best melee combat skill no matter how you're armed, and regardless whether your weapon is ready. This represents the well-accepted notion that combat training -- any combat training -- hones situational awareness.

Originally Posted by Usual Gamer

- The bonus may not count, but does the target have the right to retreat?

Officially, no. A feint isn't an attack and doesn't precipitate an active defense roll. It could involve any number of things, including fancy footwork, a head fake, or lots of other stratagems that don't look like attacks. If you have Martial Arts, it could even be a Ruse like "Look, an eagle!" or waving your feminine assets in some lech's face. (If you don't have Martial Arts, all this is assumed to be part of regular feints.) The GM is free to allow a retreat vs. a feint, I suppose, but it won't always make sense.

Originally Posted by Usual Gamer

- If the attacker spent last turn in Evaluate, does he get the bonus for the feint roll?

Yes. This is stated explicitly on pp. B364-365 (right where the text flows from one page to the next, in fact).