Confusion with Binding

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by naloth

It's pretty clear to me that you're grappled and in addition are subjected to being rooted in place. Grappling allows you to move away if you have high ST, Binding does not. Grappling doesn't prevent a Change Posture or change of facing but Binding does. Binding allows you to attempt to break free each second at a cost of 1 fatigue while Grappling only allows you one attempt every 10 seconds (no fatigue cost mentioned).

It's an odd assumption that the author would refer you to a particular passage that has different rules only to add bits you're not intended to follow literally.

Campaigns p371 Actions After Being Grappled
"If you have been grappled, you cannot take a Move maneuver unless you have at least twice your foe's ST. Aim, Feint, Concentrate, and Wait maneuvers - and ranged attacks - are completely impossible. If you are pinned, you can't take any maneuver that requires physical movement! Otherwise, you can do the following:" and the following only includes "Attack or All-Out Attack", "Ready", and "Break Free". I don't see Change Posture listed among what you are allowed to do after being grappled. Yes, there are some differences between Binding and Grapple, but a ST 1 binding will not prevent movement of a character with ST 2 or higher, it's just a pesky -4 to DX until the character takes a second to "shake off" whatever the binding is.

[wysper]

A "pesky" -4 to dx? huh?

Dx +4 = 80 pts. I'd hardly call that "pesky".


There is simply no possible way that I can see a 2 pt lvl 1 bind causing Any hindrance whatsoever to something with a strength 10 times that of the bind.

Based on some of the comments here, some of you think that the -4 dx happens regardless of anything. I just cant see it that way. If that was the case, then I could make a character with a lvl 1 bind, and keep a strength 300 strength person constantly interrupted, just by hitting him with my 2 pt advantage over and over.

I still submit that I feel the "exception" applies to the entire 3rd paragraph on pg 370 under grappling.

[gimmeataco]

To wysper:

You neglect to mention the prereq of an innate attack to even attack a target with binding, which means you need a reasonable DX/innate attack skill level to even hit your opponent. The opponent then needs to fail to defend.

That's a little more complicated than just tossing 2 points on a char.

Now if we were talking about a guaranteed hit and then a contest to determine if it effects them, I could agree with you.

As far as the affect is concerned, -4 DX varies depending on the character you build. That's 1 dodge/move/speed or 4 points on a DX based skill. Now if you were playing a mage/psi, this would mean squat to you. If you were a finesse fighter, you would want to weigh the penalty versus spending a turn removing the binding.

I also mentioned in a previous reply, movement isn't based off of your ST attribute, so why would having a 300 ST make you more dextrous in regards to being bound with some material. If I covered your body in syrup, why would benchpressing a car make you any better at throwing a ninja star.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Campaigns p371 Actions After Being Grappled
"If you have been grappled, you cannot take a Move maneuver unless you have at least twice your foe's ST. Aim, Feint, Concentrate, and Wait maneuvers - and ranged attacks - are completely impossible. If you are pinned, you can't take any maneuver that requires physical movement! Otherwise, you can do the following:" and the following only includes "Attack or All-Out Attack", "Ready", and "Break Free". I don't see Change Posture listed among what you are allowed to do after being grappled.

It's somewhat ambiguous since neither list is complete. Obviously you could "Do Nothing" but that's not listed either. FWIW, I'm somewhat liberal in house ruling the grappling rules since they don't always make logical sense to me.

Yes, there are some differences between Binding and Grapple, but a ST 1 binding will not prevent movement of a character with ST 2 or higher, it's just a pesky -4 to DX until the character takes a second to "shake off" whatever the binding is.

... except that you're explicitly "rooted in place." I don't see how you can claim to be able to move while rooted in place. If you want to house rule that Binding is just ranged grappling that's fine but the RAW disagree.

Add "Engulfing +60%" and the target is pinned as well. Being pinned completely prevents any physical movement at all regardless of ST difference.

[Erik_Nielsen]

Originally Posted by naloth

... except that you're explicitly "rooted in place." I don't see how you can claim to be able to move while rooted in place. If you want to house rule that Binding is just ranged grappling that's fine but the RAW disagree.

Add "Engulfing +60%" and the target is pinned as well. Being pinned completely prevents any physical movement at all regardless of ST difference.

And while this reading appears to be supported by RAW, I think you'd agree that it's an untenable outcome: a tube of quick-drying epoxy (ST 1) simply isn't going to stop a train or an elephant or even a charging person.

Perhaps some sort of compromise can be reached by applying the logic from "Parrying Heavy Weapons" on B376:

"Regardless of the weight of your weapon, if you are parrying unarmed or using a one-handed weapon, you cannot parry a weapon heavier than your Basic Lift-- or twice BL, if using a two-handed weapon. Attempts to parry anything heavier fail automatically; whether or not your weapon breaks, the attack sweeps it aside and damages you normally."

I leave the math of converting Binding ST to BL to the more detail-inclined.

[Kromm]

As written, unmodified Binding has two effects: it grapples and it roots in place.

The first effect works just like any grapple: the target suffers a DX penalty. This DX penalty is not affected by relative ST. The rules are clear on where the ST exception applies: "If you grapple a foe of more than twice your ST, you do not prevent him from moving away." That says nothing about the DX penalty. Having a chihuahua hanging off your knee should certainly give -4 when kicking, for instance. So regardless of Binding level, the target is at -4 DX.

The second effect isn't grappling, but a Binding-specific limitation on the target's ability to use Move and Change Posture maneuvers. This just works; it doesn't matter what ST scores are involved. The main place where ST does matter here is in breaking free.

So yes, it is possible to make a ST 1,000 target waste a turn breaking free of a Binding with ST 1. He does, after all, get a chance to dodge the attack. He can certainly use the usual multiple-attacks options to break free and do something else, though. Also, if merely walking through a force field does thrust damage "for free" for the purpose of forcing one's way through something (Powers, p. 108), then the GM could fairly rule that this applies here as well, allowing strong targets to brush aside low-ST Bindings.