GURPS does dungeon crawl?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Talonxlll

On a note, perhaps we could get a DnD -> GURPS conversion chart from the fans? I mean we can't have it offical, but it still would be a welcome sight for those of us sitting on copies of The Sunless Citadel and what not.

Many have been done but they all suffer from the fact that DnD attributes equate to both attributes and advantages in GURPS which change depending on the class involved. I have updated my own conversion sheet to D&D 3.5 and GURPS 4e but it shows just what kind of work is involved in such an endeavor.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by dravenloft

That's a can o' worms ye done opened up there, there're loads of ways people do it.
I'm not a d20 person. So I'm not sure if my conversion chart is any use beyond Basic/Intermediate/Expert/Advanced 1e/Advanced 2e but here it is:
Please note the following as well: 1) I was only concerned with converting probability of success since I play neither game as resource management and Lift/Encumbrance/etc... are "That look reasonable" or not. We don't track the numbers beyond eyeball est. 2) I used a simple comparison method. Not 100% accurate but it serves my purposes well enough. That's why numbers get skipped they didn't round satisfactorily to any probability found in a 3d roll so are left alone. 3) Exceptional str (18/01 - 00) I ignored because I'm pretty sure a str check is still done against 18 in those cases. I would suggest rounding to 18 or 19 based on char concept.

AD&D -> GURPS
1 ------------- 3
1 ------------- 4
1 ------------- 5
2 ------------- 6
3 ------------- 7
5 ------------- 8
7 ------------- 9
10 ----------- 10
12-13 ------- 11
14-15 ------- 12
16-17 ------- 13
18 ----------- 14
19 ----------- 15
20 ----------- 16

As I point out in my own conversion sheet such simple conversions overlooks the GURPS equivalent of advantages D&D gives with better than average attributes. High INT for magic-users (now Wizards) equates to magery, high WIS for clerics equates to Power Investiture, fighter classes get Fit or Very Fit equivalents for high CON and so on.

In terms of skill AD&D characters largely sucked bu GURPS standards. For example a fully experienced thief could identify noises no better than your average IQ 10 Per 10 GURPS character (50% of the time)

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Keep on the Borderlands features a monster fortress, essentially. You're asking a party of 3-6 people to storm a well fortified cavern system defended by a couple of hundred of hostile, moderately well-trained warriors of various species. They're not particularly well organized, but they are on their home turf, and they are fighting to defend hearth and home and their very lives.

As opposed to Dungeonland and The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror (EX1 & EX2) where everything is just simply out to kill you because you are there? And what would be dungeons designed to kill as many helpless PCs be without the Tomb of Horrors (S1)?

Funny thing is I ran a party of 100 pt GURPS 3e party through the place and util they got to the psudo lich thing they basically trashed it.

Of course there was Queen of the Demonweb Pits (Q1) where a 3-6 member party in the 10-14 level range was supposed to take on Lolth the goddess of the drow elves. Like a party in AD&D had a chance in the abyss of actually winning at those levels. They be lucky if old Lolth didn't turnt hem into smears

[dravenloft]

Originally Posted by maximara

As I point out in my own conversion sheet such simple conversions overlooks the GURPS equivalent of advantages D&D gives with better than average attributes. High INT for magic-users (now Wizards) equates to magery, high WIS for clerics equates to Power Investiture, fighter classes get Fit or Very Fit equivalents for high CON and so on.

In terms of skill AD&D characters largely sucked bu GURPS standards. For example a fully experienced thief could identify noises no better than your average IQ 10 Per 10 GURPS character (50% of the time)

I only concerned myself with numerical adjustments for base stats. I do convert things more by concept than anything. The D&D -> gurps conversions I've done I got a rough idea of the main stats and then just adjusted them too.
My chart is meant as a starting point so you have 4 blanks filled in from the D&D sheet.... then prune, add, plump, pluck, subtract and alter until you have what you're looking for the character to be like. Cha 18? Are they transcendently beautiful with the leadership ability of a retarded orc? Or are they ugly as a retarded orc and able to make the most stubborn generals follow where he/she/it leads?

Really the best conversion method I've found to date is: concept. Ignore the numbers and go with concept. That's not always easy though... how smart? How strong? How fast? So a numbers cheat sheet can give you a usable ballpark.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by dravenloft

I only concerned myself with numerical adjustments for base stats. I do convert things more by concept than anything. The D&D -> gurps conversions I've done I got a rough idea of the main stats and then just adjusted them too.
My chart is meant as a starting point so you have 4 blanks filled in from the D&D sheet.... then prune, add, plump, pluck, subtract and alter until you have what you're looking for the character to be like. Cha 18? Are they transcendently beautiful with the leadership ability of a retarded orc? Or are they ugly as a retarded orc and able to make the most stubborn generals follow where he/she/it leads?

Really the best conversion method I've found to date is: concept. Ignore the numbers and go with concept. That's not always easy though... how smart? How strong? How fast? So a numbers cheat sheet can give you a usable ballpark.

The problem with concept conversion is there really wasn't that much there in D&D to work with or what there was conflicted itself all over the place. A CHA 18 meant you were both transcendently beautiful and had the leadership abilities of Alexander the Great. Only when the very short lived COM (comeliness) attribute appeared did you have physical beauty separated from leadership ability and even then is was impossible from the way the attribute was set up to have CHA 18 COM 3 (great ugly leader) or CHA 3 COM 18 (Pretty boy with all the leadership of a rock) characters.

Here is a little something I wrote up regarding AD&D1 and Dia Blackthorn (the GURPS 3e version) on usenet:

Dia's Traps skill is on par with s 9th level Thief and in the areas of
Pickpocket, Lockpicking, and Stealth (Move Silently and Hide in Shadows)
Dia is slightly better than a 14th level thief. Assuming AC 10 roughly
equates to Dodge 4 (and Parry and Dodge equivalent are in AD&D hit points)
Dia hits better than a 16th level thief. Hear Noices (a perseption roll
in GURPS) is so pathetic that a 25pt GURPS character with an IQ 11 is
better than a 17th level thief which of course puts Dia with an IQ 12
right off the AD&D1 thief table. Interestingly this 100 pt character is not
even to 1st level Thief standards in his climbing ability.

Furthermore since AD&D was supposed to use a 3d6 (until roll bucket-o-dice methods appeared) you had the same bell curve GURPS has for attributes. AD&D1 said 18/00 was the highest normal human strength and GURPS 3e compendium 1 said basically the same thing for STR 20.

[dravenloft]

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem with concept conversion is there really wasn't that much there in D&D to work with or what there was conflicted itself all over the place. A CHA 18 meant you were both transcendently beautiful and had the leadership abilities of Alexander the Great. Only when the very short lived COM (comeliness) attribute appeared did you have physical beauty separated from leadership ability and even then is was impossible from the way the attribute was set up to have CHA 18 COM 3 (great ugly leader) or CHA 3 COM 18 (Pretty boy with all the leadership of a rock) characters.

Here is a little something I wrote up regarding AD&D1 and Dia Blackthorn (the GURPS 3e version) on usenet:

Dia's Traps skill is on par with s 9th level Thief and in the areas of
Pickpocket, Lockpicking, and Stealth (Move Silently and Hide in Shadows)
Dia is slightly better than a 14th level thief. Assuming AC 10 roughly
equates to Dodge 4 (and Parry and Dodge equivalent are in AD&D hit points)
Dia hits better than a 16th level thief. Hear Noices (a perseption roll
in GURPS) is so pathetic that a 25pt GURPS character with an IQ 11 is
better than a 17th level thief which of course puts Dia with an IQ 12
right off the AD&D1 thief table. Interestingly this 100 pt character is not
even to 1st level Thief standards in his climbing ability.

Furthermore since AD&D was supposed to use a 3d6 (until roll bucket-o-dice methods appeared) you had the same bell curve GURPS has for attributes. AD&D1 said 18/00 was the highest normal human strength and GURPS 3e compendium 1 said basically the same thing for STR 20.

The bell curve is only used in generating the stats and it considers an average roll o be between 7 and 13 or some such.

What I meant by concept conversion in AD&D is... convert the character convert what you want them to be and how you play them. Ultimately (in the games I play anyhow) that's all that matters. Maybe you rolled more str than you really want, well in GURPS sell that back to buy the DX you'd hoped for. Wanted an orphan who joined the church of Sharess, but learned how to pick pockets, but not the rest of thievery? Toss the skill of ledgermaine in. Want to make a young noble's son who took up magecaft, but his parents had made him take sword lessons?

There's another thread I started for musings on the details of this. It all boils down to the fact that, you're switching systems. Don't limit yourself to what the old system's char sheet says if the new system can do more, or at least do the same amount differently.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem with concept conversion is there really wasn't that much there in D&D to work with or what there was conflicted itself all over the place. A CHA 18 meant you were both transcendently beautiful and had the leadership abilities of Alexander the Great.

See, that's exactly why you convert the concept - to fill in the gaps between the systems. If you have a CHA 18 character, you decide if they're going to have Trancendant appearance, Charisma +8, or a more modest combination of the two.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Bruno

See, that's exactly why you convert the concept - to fill in the gaps between the systems. If you have a CHA 18 character, you decide if they're going to have Trancendant appearance, Charisma +8, or a more modest combination of the two.

This assumes that you have enough handle on the system you are converting from to realize when a concept is the result of the old system's rules.
The biggest problem in AD&D was that you had this 'you're pathetic now because later on you become powerful' mentality which effectively crippled many classes in their early levels.

The best example was the Magic-user who with his one spell per day a MU was about the most useless class at first level one could be in D&D. Heck even a reasonable designed 25pt GURPS Magery 0 wizard could likely do more. The best AD&D could come up with where Cantrips where you got to Sweep your enemies to death (hey you'll die but at least you will die at the hands of clean enemies)

[DAT]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Keep on the Borderlands features a monster fortress, essentially. You're asking a party of 3-6 people to storm a well fortified cavern system defended by a couple of hundred of hostile, moderately well-trained warriors of various species. They're not particularly well organized, but they are on their home turf, and they are fighting to defend hearth and home and their very lives.

It's essentially a suicide mission for the PCs if you take it very seriously and realistically, and don't give the PCs a big cinematic advantage.

When I first read about the idea of doing a GURPS dungeon crawl, The Keep on the Borderlands was the adventure I first thought of to do a conversion for.

A suicide mission? I don't remember it being that bad. But it has been ~26 years ...

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by maximara

This assumes that you have enough handle on the system you are converting from to realize when a concept is the result of the old system's rules.

I still don't think so. What you need is the player or module designers description of the NPC to round out the numbers. Character has a CHA 18 but the designer describes him as merely attractive, but with a magnetic personality? Character has Attractive appearance and CHA 4. Tada.

You can't convert just based on character statistics, especially in D&D where much of the stuff on a GURPS character sheet is left entirely to back-story and description, ie "Fluff text".