Essential Skills

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by ziresta

I want to make an enemy group that does that now. That is just SUCH an awesome idea (for the right type of not-remotely serious game, obviously.)

Even in a totally serious game, if the guerrilla army or coke cartel "owns" the town, along with the local pub, then it wouldn't be beyond belief that they would post the rotation in the pub. That's almost certainly where the foot soldiers are likely to be. A sufficiently streetwise PC could probably walk into town, enter the pub, order a beer, and take a look.

Which just illustrates why Carousing, Observation, and Streetwise are all on my list. :)

[kure]

Nice topic, I have one thought which wasn't mentioned.

There is no need to actually ROLL for every use of the skills.

"Guy with carousing and SavoirFaire 12+ came to Pub wants to know where to buy used car. "
Me as GM will say ok, it takes 1 beer and 10min to find out this information from guys in pub. Task is so simple to roll.

(Other story is when unskiled Johny came to Pub, than some default rolls are needed.)

In fact 3d6 roll in Gurps have always at least 1/216 chance to fail, which isn't to dificult to roll. :)
Means force players to roll to often, is unfair.

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

Computer Hacking. No, I'm serious. I consider Computer Hacking to be a totally redundant skill. If you didn't have it you'd just be rolling on Computer Operation.

Most people don't understand the difference. Hacking is far beyond operation and into the knowledge of the fundamental algorithms of the operating system and security of said system. It involves programming specific code to break into a system and finding inherent weaknesses. Most script kiddies out there who call themselves hackers are just operators.

Philosophy: Anyone ever roll on Philosophy? In the name of all that is sophistic...why? You can't even make a job roll with Philosophy.

Echoing others, I've used this many times in my campaigns at various points. It's usually used to counter an argument on more esoteric grounds.

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

Most people don't understand the difference. Hacking is far beyond operation and into the knowledge of the fundamental algorithms of the operating system and security of said system. It involves programming specific code to break into a system and finding inherent weaknesses.

And why can't Computer Programmers do that? Why does it need a separate skill?

[Kromm]

Computer Hacking is to Computer Operation and Computer Programming as the Enthrallment skills are to Diplomacy and Fast-Talk, and as spells are to Occultism and Religious Ritual. It isn't a realistic skill, as the text takes pains to point out. It's the skill of doing in one fell swoop, as if by magic, what would normally take a long time and several other skills to do.

[Extrarius]

To put it more succinctly, "Computer Hacking" is what you see in movies.

Real computer hacking against a specific target would take weeks (or more) and would require computer operation, computer programming, research, electronics operation/repair, and several social skills.

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

And why can't Computer Programmers do that? Why does it need a separate skill?

Programming involves some of the more general application of being able to design and code an application, feature or other usable code add-on to an existing system or even the system itself. Programming is a foundation skill for hacking, in that you'd need to know how to code your own intrusion applications or exploits. However, the hacking knowledge is more to do with finding holes in the programmer's work.

You can liken it to the way a security firm hires ex-cons to test their systems. The designers often have no idea where the holes in their code are. Hacking is the skill set where you find them and exploit them.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

And why can't Computer Programmers do that? Why does it need a separate skill?

Because the programmers don't know what to write. They understand code structure and logic, not specific operating system implementation and security holes.

Presumably, if a hacker told a programmer exactly what he needed a piece of software to do, the programmer could code it for him. But, in order to make this specification, the hacker must have the knowledge he needs to code it himself, so he might as well do it.

(Presumably, someone with a low level of Computer Hacking could be a script kiddie. They lack the ability to do any really good hacks, but have a working knowledge of existing exploits and tools sufficient to attack very weakly-secured systems, which people without the skill would not have.)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

And why can't Computer Programmers do that? Why does it need a separate skill?

Computer Programming is a real world skill. Find a Computer Programmer that you know and ask them, "Given about a minute with nothing but a late 90s Powerbook could you gain access to the mainframe of an advanced alien supercomputer orbiting the earth and deliver a fatal virus?"

In a game would you let David Levinson roll vs. Computer Operation instead of Computer Hacking to pull that off?

Originally Posted by Xplo

Because the programmers don't know what to write. They understand code structure and logic, not specific operating system implementation and security holes.

I think realistic Hackers do use a combination of Computer Operation, Computer Programming, Expert(Computer Security), and various social skills.

(Presumably, someone with a low level of Computer Hacking could be a script kiddie. They lack the ability to do any really good hacks, but have a working knowledge of existing exploits and tools sufficient to attack very weakly-secured systems, which people without the skill would not have.)

Real-life script kiddies should use Computer Operation, IMO.

[ziresta]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Even in a totally serious game, if the guerrilla army or coke cartel "owns" the town, along with the local pub, then it wouldn't be beyond belief that they would post the rotation in the pub. That's almost certainly where the foot soldiers are likely to be. A sufficiently streetwise PC could probably walk into town, enter the pub, order a beer, and take a look.

Which just illustrates why Carousing, Observation, and Streetwise are all on my list. :)

Good point. I'll definitely be using this idea soon.