Bows and Crossbows in GURPS Basic

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Ironhand

If the GURPS rule books were true, Mark Stretton would have never used a higher poundage longbow and would have continued to use a 30 pound bow. Why wouldn't you if the rules worked like in Characters?

Wait.. what do you think the rules say, and more importantly, can you provide page references?

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Ironhand

Distance, power, and damage have more to do with the bow's effects. Pulling the string is little different that pulling a lever or pushing a button. Having a ST higher than required doesn't give any additional benefits. It only means that you can hold the button down for longer. You don't draw the string back any farther and to do so would be pointless and damaging to most bows. .... I think people are making the mistake of assuming too much into bow mechanics. Just because you're doing physical labor pulling the string doesn't make the bow dependent on your strength for any more than being able to pull that string.... (Mark Stretton is the guy who pulled a 200+ pound longbow and shot it accurately.) Would he get the same result from a 80 pound longbow? No.

Exactly! To make the same point another way, basing a bow's damage on the wielder's ST because it takes strength to pull it would be like basing an AK-47's damage on the wielder's ST because it takes ST to carry it to the battlefield.

The question is not whether you can game around it; of course you can. It's whether there's some reason none of us has gronked that the RAW treat bows like thrown knives instead of (mostly*) like crossbows. If there is, it still eludes me.

*(I say "mostly" because, as a previous poster noted, you'd want to allow for weak archers who couldn't make the bow's full draw by using the minimum of the archer's ST and the bow's ST, whereas with the crossbow it's only weapon ST.)

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Wait.. what do you think the rules say, and more importantly, can you provide page references?

This will maybe clear it up.... Ironhand thinks the rules say that the damage and range of a bow are determined by the ST of the archer (see references to muscle-powered ranged weapons p. 270, 275) and that, while an exception is made for crossbows (which use their own ST rather than the ST of the attacker, p. 270), no such exception is made for bows.

So someone so strong he could use a 200-lb bow, like Mark Stretton, would have no reason to use it in GURPS RAW. He'd use a cheap 30-lb bow, since for either bow the range and damage would be determined by Mark's strength rather than the bow's. Ironhand is suggesting it fails a reality check for a child's bow in Stretton's hands to do the same damage as a 200-lb bow.

As far as I can tell, Ironhand is right.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

This will maybe clear it up.... Ironhand thinks the rules say that the damage and range of a bow are determined by the ST of the archer (see references to muscle-powered ranged weapons p. 270, 275) and that, while an exception is made for crossbows (which use their own ST rather than the ST of the attacker, p. 270), no such exception is made for bows.

That is incorrect, and I'm hoping the errata coordinator will help us out by officially clarifying that.
All bows have their own draw ST which is used for calculating damage.

As Kromm said:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Pretty much. Here's the scoop:

* All BOWS have their own ST value. Bow ST -- and not the user's ST --
determines range and damage, and must be specified when buying the bow.
An archer can always use a bow that's weaker than him, but he'll do
less damage. He cannot use a stronger bow at all. Thus, he'll usually
want to choose a bow ST that exactly matches his ST.

* All CROSSBOWS have their own ST value. Crossbow ST -- and not the
user's ST -- determines range and damage, and must be specified when
buying the crossbow. A crossbowman can always use a crossbow that's
weaker than him, but he'll do less damage. He can also use a crossbow
that's stronger than him to do more damage, but such a crossbow will
take longer to cock.

* Neither bow ST nor crossbow ST is in any way related to the "ST" stat
for those weapons. The "ST" stat is the minimum user ST needed to hold
a weapon of a particular length and mass on target. For instance, you
need ST 11 or more to hold a bulky longbow steady and ST 7 or more to
stabilize a stubby crossbow. If you have less ST, you suffer -1 to hit
per point of deficiency. You could make a longbow with ST 8 for damage
and range, and a ST 8 person could draw it -- but he'd be at -3 to hit
because while he could manage the draw, he couldn't balance a six-foot
bowstaff steady at arm's reach.

Anything else is incorrect.

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

That is incorrect, and I'm hoping the errata coordinator will help us out by officially clarifying that.

And hopefully the errata coordinator will do a better job of clarifying than I did.... The point Ironhand was making, and I was seconding, arose in response to Kromm's post, not in ignorance of it.

Originally Posted by Kromm

* All BOWS have their own ST value. Bow ST -- and not the user's ST --determines range and damage, and must be specified when buying the bow. An archer can always use a bow that's weaker than him, but he'll do less damage. He cannot use a stronger bow at all. Thus, he'll usually want to choose a bow ST that exactly matches his ST. --- snip --- Anything else is incorrect.

The problem is not that this doesn't model reality well. It's the only approach to bows that makes sense. The problem is that the "anything else" in "Anything else is incorrect" apparently includes the Basic Set. I just don't think it's in there for non-forum-browsing gamers to find.

A page reference for bows that matches the p. 270 one for crossbows would lay the problem to rest. So would the appropriately empowered official Illuminated somebody declaring "Erratum" and pledging to fix it in 5e.

Incidentally, thanks to whoever first brought this up. It never dawned on me before reading this thread that bows ought to be included in the crossbow rule, even though it's a total forehead-slapper.

[Ironhand]

I feel kind of dumb myself, since even though I was the first to bring the subject up here, I've done archery for quite awhile and the last campaign I GM'ed I never even thought of correcting the problem. I know the PC's picked up other's bows more than once and the thought never even crossed my mind. Its not something that really stands out and to be honest, the times I should have noticed it, I was so busy that I guess I missed it. Well, hope it gets added to Errata so the matter gets cleared up. Well, I guess I'll start my GURPS Greece campaign w lots of material from Biotech. I'll do it right this time. Should be a fun project. I really love Biotech. Great book. I guess I'm not the only Forumite in Alexandria. I'm still looking for a good gaming group in this area and I think I'll sign off before I ramble any more.

[AstralRunner]

What I don't like is that there is one entry for the crossbow, at TL 2. There were some pretty significant advances in crossbow engineering during the Middle Ages. How about the arbalest? It takes a skilled operator 30 seconds to wind and fire, but it's accurate to 500 yards and hurts like hell if it hits you.

I also just realized something weird. In the line for Crossbow, there is a listed ST and the damage is thr+4. Why didn't they just look up what thr+4 for 7 Str is, and print that much damage in the weapons table?

There is also an omission in regards to modern archery weapons. The compound bow was invented in the 1960s, compound crossbows can be reloaded much more quickly than medieval crossbows of the same draw strength.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

So would the appropriately empowered official Illuminated somebody declaring "Erratum" and pledging to fix it in 5e.

That "somebody" is me, and my e-mail to Ze pretty much covered it. The errata coordinator was CCed.

Originally Posted by AstralRunner

I also just realized something weird. In the line for Crossbow, there is a listed ST and the damage is thr+4. Why didn't they just look up what thr+4 for 7 Str is, and print that much damage in the weapons table?

Did you read the e-mail Ze quoted? The ST on the weapon table is the weapon's "minimum ST" -- the ST you need to hold the thing steady and aim it -- and not it's draw ST. Draw ST is whatever it is . . . the ST stat remains 7, unless you want to implement more complicated rules for higher-draw-ST crossbows weighing more. Anyway, that ST 7 has nothing to do with the crossbow's ST. A crossbow could have range and damage for ST 17, but once it's cocked, somebody with ST 7 could pick it up and shoot it.

[carllarson]

To check my comprehension here then;

All bows effectively have 2 STs, the minimum listed as ST to use effectively, and an unlisted that is the ST of the bow or crossbow itself, used for damage. Usage at less then the minimum ST gives the penalties to attack rolls.

Using a crossbow of a higher ST than yourself, you take longer to reload, but use the crossbow's ST for damage (which is not the minimum ST listed, but seperate).

Using a bow, you use the base reload rate, but the lower of your ST or the bow's ST for damage and range, as if weaker, you can't get full effect from the bow.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by carllarson

All bows effectively have 2 STs, the minimum listed as ST to use effectively, and an unlisted that is the ST of the bow or crossbow itself, used for damage. Usage at less then the minimum ST gives the penalties to attack rolls.

Right.

Originally Posted by carllarson

Using a crossbow of a higher ST than yourself, you take longer to reload, but use the crossbow's ST for damage (which is not the minimum ST listed, but separate).

Correct.
Most military crossbows are made at a higher ST and will take longer to cock, which is where the different methods of cocking come in, like goat's feet, crank wheels, belt hooks, etc., come in.

Originally Posted by carllarson

Using a bow, you use the base reload rate, but the lower of your ST or the bow's ST for damage and range, as if weaker, you can't get full effect from the bow.

Not quite.
You use the lower of your ST or the bow's ST for damage and range if you are stronger than the bow.
If the bow is stronger than you, well, you really can't use it effectively.