Bows and Crossbows in GURPS Basic

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Morudrane

Oh, and did I mention no one in the group chose a weapon without the imp bonus?

You aren't doubling imp damage before subtracting armor DR, right?

And you aren't tripling damage for hitting the vitals on top of doubling the imp damage, right?

Originally Posted by Morudrane

Before melee fighters could deal any significant dmg, the player with the bow had killed the enemy party's leader with an aimed shot to the vitals

As a combat example, let's say the archer takes the time to aim for several seconds to reduce the distance penalties and manages to hit the enemy party's leader who is unaware of the person aiming at him all that time.

A noticeably strong archer with ST 13 with a normal longbow does 1d+2, which is a min 3 dmg and a max 8 dmg and an average 5-6 dmg.

Even if he rolls max dmg, and hits the vitals, normal mail has DR 4 which will reduce 8 dmg to 4, tripled for hitting the vitals, that becomes 12. If the enemy's party leader has 12 HP or less, then he has to make a HT roll to stay conscious though isn't anywhere near death.

If the enemy's party leader is just wearing a leather buff coat or similar, then a max dmg roll means 6 dmg gets through, tripled for hitting the vitals becomes 18, and he has to roll HT to stay conscious.

The only way for a one shot kill with an arrow like that, would be if the enemy party's leader is completely unarmored, or just wearing cloth armor, and has ST/HP of 10 or less and the PC rolls max damage, neither of which is likely, though it's all possible.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

Had they been running criss-cross they would have also been able to add their speed to the penalty for the archers to hit.

Would they? I was under the impression that moving things that get a dodge use that, instead of penalizing the shooter.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

If the enemy's party leader is just wearing a leather buff coat or similar, then a max dmg roll means 6 dmg gets through, tripled for hitting the vitals becomes 18, and he has to roll HT to stay conscious.

The only way for a one shot kill with an arrow like that, would be if the enemy party's leader is completely unarmored, or just wearing cloth armor, and has ST/HP of 10 or less and the PC rolls max damage, neither of which is likely, though it's all possible.

We've not had another hit point confusion have we? The 'roll to stay conscious, roll to survive' thing doesn't always get understood first time...

[Ironhand]

I personally use the Draw Weight for ST system. It really doesn't make any difference in damage if I have a st of 18 and my brother 9 if we are both using the same 30 weight bow. Its not our st that effects the bow st, velocity, and other factors. According to the current rules Hercules would do more damage with the same bow even though its not a primary factor except for determing whether you could pull the bow fully. It would only effect the ease of his draw and how long he could hold the string before fatigue would cause his shot to be more inaccurate. His high ST would let him shoot a much higher draw weight bow, but its the bows draw weight (ST of the bow) that should fiqure base damage and not the users. I use an alternate system that breaks draw weight into ST for bow damage that someone else created. Having a bow's damage be based on the user's ST makes no more sense than doing the same with guns (though ST fiqures in more as secondary factors unrelated to damage as stated before).

[Sword-dancer]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Certainly, if you go with slightly stronger-than-average guys (ST 11) shooting short bows (thr), you get 1d-1 imp. .

AFAIk the turksin the crusades used composite bows and btw the french at Crecy attacked the english bowmen at Crecy 16 or 17 times

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Would they? I was under the impression that moving things that get a dodge use that, instead of penalizing the shooter.

I've always applied the velocity of a target to the skill penalty to hit as much as the distance.

[Kromm]

FWIW, bows of all kind have their own ST that has nothing to do with the user's ST. You can use any bow with a ST less than or equal to your own. I have no idea where the idea that the rules vary bow damage by user ST comes from . . . the rules are pretty clear that you vary bow damage by bow ST.

[carllarson]

Well, that stops me looking for the place its written, as I couldn't find the word on bows in 4E. Did find crossbows in both Characters (pg 270) and Campaigns (pg 373), but not other bows.

But, varying the damage per the bow's ST, if the bow is rated at a higher ST than the archer, would give a ST 7 archer the same damage as a ST 10 archer using a longbow. Wouldn't it be better to use the lower of the bow's ST or the archer's ST, and for crossbows, the rated ST?

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Kromm

FWIW, bows of all kind have their own ST that has nothing to do with the user's ST. You can use any bow with a ST less than or equal to your own. I have no idea where the idea that the rules vary bow damage by user ST comes from . . . the rules are pretty clear that you vary bow damage by bow ST.

Does anyone have a pageref for this? I'm not seeing it.

Under Damage (B268), I see:

For muscle-powered melee and missile weapons, such as swords and bows, damage is ST-based and is expressed as a modifier to the wielders basic thrusting (thr) or swinging (sw) damage. . .

Later, under ST (Strength) there is a heading for Crossbows and ST:

Crossbows and prodds have their own ST value. Use this instead of your ST. . .

So, I see it quite clearly in the rules for crossbows, but not for any of the weapons that require the Bow skill. Does anyone know what Kromm is referring to here?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by carllarson

Well, that stops me looking for the place its written, as I couldn't find the word on bows in 4E. Did find crossbows in both Characters (pg 270) and Campaigns (pg 373), but not other bows.

But, varying the damage per the bow's ST, if the bow is rated at a higher ST than the archer, would give a ST 7 archer the same damage as a ST 10 archer using a longbow. Wouldn't it be better to use the lower of the bow's ST or the archer's ST, and for crossbows, the rated ST?

I don't know where that rule is in 4/e, but in Low-Tech, for 3/e, the rule was that the ST 7 archer would be at -3 to skill; would pay 3 FP when the fight was over; and would have to win a Contest of ST with the bow for each second spent in aiming, losing the accumulated bonus after any second when the bow won the contest. (I presume that should be read as "Quick Contest" rather than "Regular Contest.")

Bill Stoddard