Brawling vs DX

[laserdog]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

You get a lot of drunk cowboys around here looking like they're trying to imitate a B-52 though... swinging both arms around like propellers. I'm assuming since they're at the bar age they've been in a few scraps in their life. They hit a lot, but the effect is as though they did nothing to their opponent. Meanwhile the bouncer lines them up and gives them a right hook and they go down like a sack of laundry hitting the ground.

Possibly because they're all taking AoA: determined. =)

[Kaldrin]

Actually, I think that counts as AoA: Dual Strike...

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Bruno

cccwebs underscores one of the main benefits of Brawling over raw DX. I believe there are also techniques in Martial Arts that have a more favorable default to Brawling over DX, or no DX default at all - although don't quote me on that, I can't exactly list them off.

Elbow Strike and Knee Strike are examples from Basic. MA should have some more.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Elbow Strike and Knee Strike are examples from Basic. MA should have some more.

Hee hee, excellent, the hive mind strikes again. I forgot there were some in Basic Set.

So in a nutshell:

Brawling at DX gives you more parries per turn, and more combat options (for instance Elbow Strike and Knee Strike, neither of which have a DX default at all).

Also, While you can Kick with DX, you can't improve your Kick with a Technique unless you invest in Brawling or Karate.

Similarly, Karate at DX-2 has worse odds of hitting over just thumping the other guy, and gets no damage bonuses. But the parries are even more robust than Brawling and DX parries, and you have access to even more combat options that you just can't do with Brawling or DX.

Same deal with Boxing, Wrestling, and Judo.

Note that if you have one point in Karate, you could use an unskilled punch at DX to attack and rely on Karate Parry for defense if you wanted to - if you're not trying a tricky technique based on Karate, its perfectly valid.

[Kromm]

Others have summed it up, but I'll wave my hands over it:

Brawling gives a parry with either hand. A DX 10 man with Brawling 10 gets two parries at 8. Granted, he also gets a dodge at 8, and has 11 if he opts to retreat . . . but he can only retreat from one foe per turn. He'll find the parries useful if he has more than one foe. And a more likely DX 14 action-hero type with Brawling 14 gets two parries at 10, and a dodge at perhaps 9. Against multiple foes, retreating on the dodge for 12 and then parrying twice at 10 could even be reliable.

Brawling lets you use Elbow Strike and Knee Strike, both of which have little benefits built in. Elbow Strike lets you get at somebody behind you at only -2, instead of at -5 with a skill cap, as with Wild Swing. Knee Strike removes the penalty for targeting the groin when grappling, and delivers kick damage without the danger of falling down on a miss. Neither has a DX default.

Come Martial Arts, that second item up there will be an even bigger deal.

The executive summary is that even a point in Brawling is worth it if the character ever plans to get into a melee with multiple foes, people coming from behind, people grappling from in front, etc. That is, if he ever plans to be in a brawl. It's only a bad deal if all his battles are frontal, one-on-one fist-fights.

I'd counsel very strongly against resurrecting 3e-style skill/N bonuses to damage. For one thing, they front-load the skill altogether too much, making the incremental increase in striking effectiveness that only comes with years of practice appear after merely a few hours of training. For another, they really reward high DX, not training, since in (DX+X)/N, DX/N >> X/N for typical DX and low values of X. Being agile is nice for lots of reasons, but it doesn't really substitute for the school of hard knocks.

[Cassandra]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd counsel very strongly against resurrecting 3e-style skill/N bonuses to damage. For one thing, they front-load the skill altogether too much, making the incremental increase in striking effectiveness that only comes with years of practice appear after merely a few hours of training. For another, they really reward high DX, not training, since in (DX+X)/N, DX/N >> X/N for typical DX and low values of X. Being agile is nice for lots of reasons, but it doesn't really substitute for the school of hard knocks.

Yep, I agree, wasn't planning on doing that. Punches do more damage in 4e by default, anyway.

These are interesting points, but I'd still argue that brawling with "default skill" (DX) is too easy. I mean, hitting with a light club (basically any piece of wood about 50-80 cm in lenght) is DX-5 by default, or worse, if the branch you're using is less than perfectly balanced. An unskilled person swinging the said branch will AoA to hit someone. I think the same condition should apply to fisticuffs; if you are unskilled, you either AoA or start grappling your foe.

I'm going to use a house rule that gives -2 to DX for any unskilled brawler. A middle ground between the normal Easy skill default, and unreasonable high untrained brawling rule.

[Kyle Aaron]

Cassandra, like many GURPS players and GMs you seem to be forgetting... Reach.

With a club, you can strike at range 1; with fists, only at range C. So if two characters begin at a distance, the character with a club has the chance to Evaluate for however long it takes the foe to arrive at reach 1, then whack 'em. A round or three of Evaluate, plus All-Out Attack, will give +5 to +7 to hit. So the DX-5 becomes DX to DX+2. Your average person then gets 10 to 12 attack.

The character with the club can Parry & Retreat at (DX-5)/2 + 3 + 1, or 7 for an average character; Dodge & Retreat at Dodge + 3 or 11 for the average character is a better option.

So as the foe approaches, the unskilled average character with club can Evaluate, while doing a Wait maneuver - "when the foe reaches 1 yard away, I hit with the club!" and attack at 10 to 12; the foe if they are unhurt by the attack can then attack, and the character then Dodges & Retreats at 11. Not bad for 0 Character Points ;)

Additionally, the character can do an Attack & Step, with the Step being backwards. Let the foe come to 1 yard away, attack, step back one yard to a range of 2 yards. The unarmed foe must then do a Move & Attack with a -4 to hit.

So if you have a club, stand and wait for the foe to come at you, then use its superior range and your own stepping around to keep the foe at bay. Reach I've seen very much underused in GURPS games - but it's significant. If both characters are unskilled, and have the same DX - a club is superior to a punch. Reach!

[Cassandra]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

So if you have a club, stand and wait for the foe to come at you, then use its superior range and your own stepping around to keep the foe at bay. Reach I've seen very much underused in GURPS games - but it's significant. If both characters are unskilled, and have the same DX - a club is superior to a punch. Reach!

I know. I wasn't arguing about that. =) I was saying, hitting with a club with no skill shouldn't be that much harder than hitting with your fists, with no skill. Well actually the other way around, hitting with your fists should be (almost) as hard as hitting with a club, unskilled.

God, I really have to learn to write, since my point has been missed several times in this thread. I think I'll just shut up on this subject, and go on using my house rules. Time to move on to other dumb questions... =)

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Cassandra

I'm going to use a house rule that gives -2 to DX for any unskilled brawler. A middle ground between the normal Easy skill default, and unreasonable high untrained brawling rule.

Unreasonably high is an interesting twist on it - most people complain it is too hard to hit someone in the head in GURPS with unarmed skills. But for argument's sake, let's look at a DX 10 person with no Brawling. We'll ignore Extra Effort, though, because it makes the analysis really complicated, and burning FP is something a trained fighter can benefit from as well.

DX 10 dude has a 10 or less to hit the torso, or a randomly-rolled location. If he's ST 10, he does 1d-2 thrust, or 1d-3 with a punch. Damage is 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 3. So he's got a 10 or less to hit the torso, and half the time he doesn't do any damage. He can up this to a 14 or less to hit with an AOA (Determined), or up his damage to 1d-1 (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) with AOA (Strong).

But what if he headhunts, like so many (maybe most?) people do in a fight? Face is -5. He has a 5 or less to hit the Face, 9 or less with AOA (Determined) but skill has the same 0-3 damage as before. It's 5 or less if he takes AOA (Strong) for the +2 damage.

This disregards the likely vision penalties for a dark alley, dimly-lit bar (i.e. most bars, nevermind the kind you brawl in, etc.) which could range from -1 to -9. Bad Footing, always possible in a brawl, is a further -2. So this assumes good lighting, footing, sobriety, and so on.

Now, if you tack on a -2 to this, untrained DX 10 dude has an 8 to hit the torso, 12 with AOA (Determined). Heck, his kicks are a base 6...he needs to AOA (Determined) for a 50/50 chance of hitting a target. Before, like I said, any situational penalties. Now, this may be exactly what you want - put a point in Brawling and you work back up to the level described above. Don't, and you're pretty badly off...you need a 3 to hit the Face, with a 7 using AOA (Determined). Maybe realistic based on all the fights I've seen...although most of them seemed to involve angry drunk people. ;)
But maybe that -2 is a bit harsh. Perhaps a -1, or limiting their options - GURPS Martial Arts will have a box about untrained fighters. One suggestion is an oldie but goodie from one of Sean's GURPSNet-L posts that I turned into a house rule - only letting untrained fighters All-Out Attack and All-Out Defend...so Brawling dude isn't more likely to hit, but when he's swinging he still gets to defend!

Anyway, stuff to think about for when you implement your house rules. I'm curious how it would work...I can run the numbers, but I've never seen a PC without DX-level in an unarmed striking skill so I'd not get much use of it. NPCs without combat skills generally don't last long enough to try to hit anyone in my games.

[JoelSammallahti]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

So as the foe approaches, the unskilled average character with club can Evaluate, while doing a Wait maneuver - "when the foe reaches 1 yard away, I hit with the club!" and attack at 10 to 12; the foe if they are unhurt by the attack can then attack, and the character then Dodges & Retreats at 11. Not bad for 0 Character Points ;)

Hold on, what kind of situation are you describing? Evaluate and Wait are separate maneuvers. If jack club is evaluating, he can't simultaneously be preparing to whack mister fist at Reach 1. And since to Evaluate, he'll have to be in move-and-attack range, mister fist will be in all-out attack range on his third turn (at most) and in move-and-attack range on his first or second turn (moving closer with All-Out-Defense). Jack club won't have time to get the full evaluate bonus and also wait. In fact, unless he's at nearly the maximum range for an Evaluate, mister fist can move-and-attack right away, and jack club won't be waiting. And if jack manages to get an evaluate bonus and declare Wait before mister fist closes in, and launches an AoA, how do you expect him to dodge after that?