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Old 02-07-2007, 06:23 PM   #21
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

o_O Holy *NINJA'D* this is brilliant.

I'm not one to like houserules or optional rules. They tend to make things overcomplex and take away from the game. But this...This is just plain friggen awesome. o_O
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:07 PM   #22
Luther
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookman
I think it is fair to say that there a good deal of agreement that armor is too heavy and not proof enough against penetration (though whether it offers the right protection against trauma is less-agreed-upon, I think). I wouldn't want to define consensus for such a large body of opinion, though, and it's probably not even realistic to seek it.
Good recap. Kromm hinted that Edge Protection could make into Low Tech (I refuse to call it "Cabaret Chicks on Ice") as an optional rule. I very much hope so.

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Great! I'll try and pop by and make a suggestion or two, but I'll give the nod to Luther as the local "human capabilities" expert
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:53 PM   #23
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
I was drinking coffe... now you have to buy me a new keyboard.
Well, hey, I probably am the high priest of stat normalization -- seems only appropriate to acknowledge you. :)
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Old 02-08-2007, 05:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

It looks very promising. I agree that GURPS underestimates the protective capabilities of pretty much all LT armour - except maybe leather.
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Old 02-08-2007, 06:34 AM   #25
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding
Instead of a flat cost for EP as an ability shouldn't EP be a limitation for DR?
In this modern GURPS age, yes, it should! Rather than the unfriendly -67% (= 1/3 cost) I suggested, I guess EP should be a -60% limitation on DR. (And rather than its old 2/3 cost, my revised Toughness trait would become a -40%).

I'll put that into the final version, with credit. Thanks!
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Old 02-08-2007, 07:18 AM   #26
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

I've been thinking about woven body armor, because that's the most complicated real-world phenomenon I can think of.

Deal is, if the bullet has enough energy to penetrate the weave, the armor barely protects at all. If it doesn't, it's fully stopped, with only bruising.

Thinking about it, I guess this would be a conditional on the EP value. If incoming damage exceeds EP, then EP counts for much less (1/3 to 1/10) and the armor is fully penetrated.

In my bullet damage system, penetration is strictly a function of energy and cross section. Wounding is a geometric average (sqrt (a x b)) of an energy based quantity and a momentum based quantity--it's how I get the bullet size (wound channel) modifier.

It occurs to me that if one is going to distinguish between a penetrating wound and a non-penetrating wound (blunt trauma) for firearms, you'd need a basic pentration number (regular GURPS firearm damage, as-is), a penetrating wound modifier (wound channel modifier) and a nonpenetrating wound modifier (blunt trauma mod).

Basically: dice of damage based on energy and cross-section, a wound channel modifier close to the bullet size modifier.

I also came up with, just now, a massively arbitrary formula for how many points of damage per point of blunt trauma based on the sqrt of momentum relative to the 124gr 9mm pistol. I'm surprised it makes numbers as sensible as they do.

Some examples:

.22LR 1 blunt per 20 basic damage
.380ACP 1 BT per 15
4.6mm and 5.7mm PDW: 1 BT per 15
.45ACP 1BT per 9
[nearly all conventional pistol rounds are in the 1 per 9 to 11 range)
.223 1 per 9
7.62x39mm: 1 per 7
.500 Smith and Wesson: 1 per 5
6.8x43mm SPC: 1 per 7
7.62x51mm: 1 per 6
.338 Magnum 1 per 5
.50 BMG: 1 per 3
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Old 02-08-2007, 09:03 AM   #27
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward
It looks very promising. I agree that GURPS underestimates the protective capabilities of pretty much all LT armour - except maybe leather.
I'd love to see Low TL armour revisted in a comprehensive fashion. Readjusting weight, DR, and including the EP concept.
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:16 AM   #28
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

I would add some examples and discussions about how this will affect object DR scores. After all, if thin steel plate somebody is wearing acquires this new ability to bend a bit before breaking, then so should thick steel plate on a boiler somebody is using for cover (perhaps that's not the best example, since a boiler is a shell without many "innards" to dent, but this suggests that the details here may require thought). This might be a way to deal with the difficulty that attacks, especially ones doing few dice so the bell curve is weak, tend to penetrate armour a bit too often given the current assumptions about how DR and damage interrelate. Thanks for updating this for 4e!
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Old 02-09-2007, 03:45 PM   #29
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

Hello! Comments on many comments:

@Gavyn: "Mail mesh bruises"... yes, I like the image.

@Jeffro: A Car Wars blog? How cool is that? (I like Div 10 too. And 15.)

@Bookman, Dan Howard, others: In a big overview of armor, I think an optional set of revised DR (and EP) stats would be interesting, for those who feel GURPS undervalues its defensive value... but even if there's no concensus out there on what proper values are, how about tossing something out for consideration (i.e., for the forum hounds to ravage)? Are GURPS low-tech armor stats a wee too low, such as by 10% or 20%? Or are they vastly too low? Does lots more DR make sense, or just added EP?

I'm not too familiar with the discussion, so I wouldn't know what's an intelligent fix to suggest.

@Luther: Dr K hinted that EP could be an optional rule in Low-Tech? I didn't hear that. Would be a good thing to see in Low-Tech.

@Douglas Cole: Re "Deal is, if the bullet has enough energy to penetrate the weave, the armor barely protects at all. If it doesn't, it's fully stopped, with only bruising": I have a hard time wrapping my head around why that would be. Say certain bullet spends all its remaining energy, x, deforming the armor just short of its point of penetration. The next bullet has just a tad more energy (x+y). Wouldn't it, too, lose the same x in deforming the armor to the point of penetration, with only y left over afterward?

Brutally simplified, I'm sure, and I hesitate to question the forum expert on gaming ballistics, but I'm wondering why things would work very differently, and whether the difference is important in game terms.

@Polydamas: Hmm, I hadn't given a thought to inanimates. The first question becomes, is it important? If the rules say that an object has DR 50, does it matter whether that's 50 pts of inflexible DR, or only 45 points of DR and 5 of bendy EP? I'd think it only matters for objects that are worn, and armor is all I can think of there.

At the technical level, though, I wonder how it would work. I would think the thicker the steel, the less flexible, at least over a small area, suggesting that DR alone is good enough for steel walls and their ilk. What do you think?
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Old 02-09-2007, 04:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: Edge Protection rules update (draft)

I'm not the best guy for tis, but I would suggest the following:

Cloth armor DR 1-2, EP 3-4
Leather DR 2, EP 2
Mail DR 4/2, EP 3-4
Scale DR 5, EP 2
Wrought Iron plate: DR 5-6, EP 3
Mid-carbon Plate: DR 7-8, EP 3

These are fairly arse values. In that I took'em outta my ass. By the 14th-15th centuries, you're goingto want armour to stop one-handed weaponswith relative ease. This means it needs to resist 7-9 damage reliably. I don't mind blunt trauma hittingfor 3 or 4 points. It's possible to hit a knight in finearmour in the chest and not penetrate hisarmour, but fracture a limb.
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