Herb Lore ("Alchemy") and Charms

[Gudiomen]

I'm mostly a GM, but at the moment I'm coming up with a character for a friend's future setting. It's fantasy, not very standard, but difficult to explain. Think "Dragonbone Chair".

The character in question is a wonderor, he belonged to a very old tribe that due to internal reasons dissipated into the world. The tone of the tribal background is "dark celtic".

To represent the spiritual/shamanistic aspects of the character I chose Herb Lore, wich would add a fantastic element, without the mess of the magic system wich the GM also doesn't like. I know some of the more fantastic elixirs like shapeshifting will be out of bounds, but that's not a problem. However, some concerns came up when I was building the character sheet:

- Time: did anyone do achemist adventurers? Seems like the time to brew potions make it prohibitive and root you to place. Aside from grossly cinematic advantages, how do you work around this?
- How much would Gadgeteer (Only Herb Lore) cost? What's the discount?
- "Lab": GURPS Magic mentions that Herb Lore uses herbs and not weird exotic ingredients, but doesn't mention much in lab space. Most herbalists from fiction I can picture used pretty much just a cauldron and a few other stuff, not really an expensive lab. Thoughts?

- Charms: since the cost to make a charm is the same as to make the elixir (only time increases) what's to stop a player to start with several Amulets and Talismans? Should you stop a player from doing so?
- How exactly do I know if something is an Amulet or a Talisman? Magic suggests that defensive elixirs become Amulets, but then, would a Charm of Invulnerability grant the character +3DR as long as it's worn? Or would it be an Amulet... activated and recharged?

I know some of this is setting specific, but neither the GM nor I have much exerience with Alchemy and Herb Lore...
Any other considerations about Herb Lore or Alchemy are welcome, even if you just put your experience out there, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

- Time: did anyone do achemist adventurers? Seems like the time to brew potions make it prohibitive and root you to place. Aside from grossly cinematic advantages, how do you work around this?

You don't. Tough.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

- How much would Gadgeteer (Only Herb Lore) cost? What's the discount?

ROT seems to be -20%.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

- "Lab": GURPS Magic mentions that Herb Lore uses herbs and not weird exotic ingredients, but doesn't mention much in lab space. Most herbalists from fiction I can picture used pretty much just a cauldron and a few other stuff, not really an expensive lab. Thoughts?

Isn't there rules in Campaigns about equipment? For Herb Lore, I'd say a kitchen is plenty enough. This is, after all, the main advantage of Herb Lore over Alchemy.

[William]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

- Time: did anyone do achemist adventurers? Seems like the time to brew potions make it prohibitive and root you to place. Aside from grossly cinematic advantages, how do you work around this?

This is a common problem suffered by characters such as enchanters and alchemists, and unfortunately there is little way arond it without magic. GURPS Magic suggests that a substantial time savings in alchemy can be achieved through use of the spells Mature (speeds reactions) and Distill (fractional distillations and such). These are Food College spells with short prerequisite chains and no offensive capability; a 1-gallon vessel usable for Mature once per day is even within the usual "Quick & Dirty" enchantment regime, so several of them could be a cheap investment ($50/jar) for a wandering alchemist or herblorist.

If your GM likes the idea of an herbalist able to respond to a problem with a few hours' work, but would rather you not cast spells, consider purchasing a few such pots or jars (and maybe one for Distill, though that costs more) and simply handwaving that they much reduce preparation time -- weeks to days, for instance.

Another important point: remember that an alchemist with sufficient skill can reliably make large batches, so whenever he has some free time between adventures, consider brewing up a number of doses of items you're good at and keeping them on your person for quick use later. The one alchemist I ever ran in a game liked to carry around some vials of Chiron (healing) and some pastilles of Morpheus (sleep smoke).

- "Lab": GURPS Magic mentions that Herb Lore uses herbs and not weird exotic ingredients, but doesn't mention much in lab space. Most herbalists from fiction I can picture used pretty much just a cauldron and a few other stuff, not really an expensive lab. Thoughts?

Definitely agree with this. In fact, a wandering herbalist could probably carry a set of covered pots and jars, a mortar and pestle, some firestarter, and possibly a few select pieces of the equipment described above, and be good to go.

- Charms: since the cost to make a charm is the same as to make the elixir (only time increases) what's to stop a player to start with several Amulets and Talismans? Should you stop a player from doing so?

I wouldn't. However, that cost referred to is only the cost of the materials for the recipe (less the usual discount for Herb Lore); I would definitely assign a cost for the labor the herbalist used in making it. Then the only limit on what the player could start with would be his starting Wealth.

- How exactly do I know if something is an Amulet or a Talisman? Magic suggests that defensive elixirs become Amulets, but then, would a Charm of Invulnerability grant the character +3DR as long as it's worn? Or would it be an Amulet... activated and recharged?

There are no hard rules. Obviously, an item with an instantaneous effect, such as Alchemical Antidote or Healing, will be a talisman. Other elixirs, such as Keen Sight, Invulnerability, or Magic Resistance, might function as amulets -- but offer such powerful abilities that I might ask the player to buy these as Advantages if he wanted to purchase them as a permanent item! (Keen Sight gives +6 to Vision rolls, which would normally cost 12 points as an Advantage; I would be more comfortable with a player owning a talisman that let him do this occasionally rather then having it constantly on, unless he wanted to pay for it as an Advantage with a Gadget limitation or two. Only fair if he and Hawk-Eyed Harry are in the same team, and Harry bought the sight normally.)

I know some of this is setting specific, but neither the GM nor I have much exerience with Alchemy and Herb Lore...
Any other considerations about Herb Lore or Alchemy are welcome, even if you just put your experience out there, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

If you and your GM enjoy this character idea, make sure there's a general understanding that the challenges will be tempered to the character; on a fast-paced adventure, the herbalist will be expected to put his starting stock to good use (amulets and talismans will certainly help with that), while a slower-paced adventure will offer the character the chance to perhaps arrange events so that he has a short breathing space in which to brew up a response to conditions. An even longer-paced adventure might offer him the chance to assess a threat, brew a response, employ it, react to changed conditions, work up another step of a plan, and so forth. (In fairness to the GM, such games can be tricky to run without bogging down.)

Like any gizmo-oriented character with a finite supply of tools available at any given time, have a backup plan so that you can contribute to a team in case you run out of options, or don't have a useful elixir on hand. Mundane medical skills and outdoor survival skills sound very much in character for this herbalist -- as for combat options, I've always found a staff's defensive bonus and innocuous appearance to be good for someone who spent more skill points on healing than fighting. :^)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

- Time: did anyone do achemist adventurers? Seems like the time to brew potions make it prohibitive and root you to place. Aside from grossly cinematic advantages, how do you work around this?

I allow Gadgeteer/Quick Gadgeteer and Gizmos to work with Alchemy in my current campaign. The rules that the alchemist's player and I negotiated and agreed to are as follows:

• Gadgeteers with Gizmos may roll against Alchemy to whip out an elixir instantly, with zero cash cost. This roll is at the usual -6 for lack of a formulary, -1 for improvised equipment, and -2 for a "hasty" invention (per the rules on p. B58) -- plus whatever the elixir's default penalty might be (from -1 for Healing through -6 for Resurrection to -9 for Youth). In short, Alchemy at -10 to -18. That makes skill 20 to 30 desirable.
  
  
• Gizmo elixirs -- being thrown-together -- are unstable. They must be used (consumed, ignited, hurled, etc.) immediately after the alchemist makes his skill roll.
  
  
• The cash value of a Gizmo elixir cannot exceed $500 adjusted by the alchemist's Wealth multiple: $1,000 at Comfortable, $2,500 at Wealthy, $10,000 at Very Wealthy, and $50,000 at Filthy Rich. Healing is $120 (Average), for instance, while Flight and Invisibility are $3,000 (Very Wealthy). Resurrection is $25,000 (Filthy Rich)! This reflects the gadgeteer's never-seen but assumed stash of "secret ingredients."

It's your call as to whether that's "grossly cinematic." I would not consider it such. Gadgeteer [25-50] + Gizmos [5-15] is 30-65 points, not unlike Magery 3+, while Alchemy at 20-30 isn't much different from 1 point in dozens of spells in terms of coverage and point cost. Most of what wizards with Magery 3+ and dozens of spells do is significantly flashier and more game-breaking than whipping out a few potions . . .

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

- How much would Gadgeteer (Only Herb Lore) cost? What's the discount?

It's fairly useful and powerful. I'd probably rate it at -20%, which is what sticking "Spells Only" on Modular Abilities gives you, according to Powers. Before TL4, I'd argue that hasty potion-brewing is the main use of Gadgeteer anyway (although the aforementioned alchemist also uses it for things like customized ballistae, incendiaries, and gimmicky inventions such as "quick-release backpacks").

[Gudiomen]

Thanks for the response guys, for a moment I feared the thread would go unnoticed. A lot of good points above.

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

You don't. Tough.

Thanks, that was helpful.

Originally Posted by William

-- weeks to days, for instance.

This is the sort of time frame I was looking for yes, it'd fit the concept better. Even if it meant only being able to concoct lesser potions. Powerfull magic, alchemy, etc... rare in the setting, so it doesn't fit well that the character can make powerfull stuff. However, the limitations of those powers are not because they are lengthy and boring, it's because they are hard and largely unknown.

What both the GM and I would like (we GM very simmilarly and trade ideas all the time) is for a more dynamic way to do alchemy and tone it down a bit. Think of it like this, there's no teleportation in tokien, people have to fly at most and only demi-gods can do it, other people have to walk. There's no magical items hanging around everywhere (well, human-wise anyway). It's sort of like that. There is no ressurection, no regeneration... at best you can stich your arm back and use black magic to reanimate it, but it'll be prone to fall off, heal slowly... etc.

The elixir that allows you to ask a question of a dead guy is our favorite, it's the sort of flavour we like. Just so you get an idea.

Originally Posted by William

I would be more comfortable with a player owning a talisman that let him do this occasionally rather then having it constantly on

Yes this was my impression too, no matter how hard I look, all the Amulets seem abusive for the setting. While talisman with their long recharge rates and potential dramatic use seem quite nice. I'd definately not include the labor, since the character did it himself, and he wouldn't charge himself for it. It's common practice for us that characters with the skills and resources to do so (you need a forge to get a sword done) can start with their own equipment made at cost. But I've more or less decided to turn away from Amulets and use Talismans only, and then the cost doesn't seem abusive.

Originally Posted by Kromm

• Gadgeteers with Gizmos
• Gizmo elixirs
  
  

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's your call as to whether that's "grossly cinematic." I would not consider it such. Gadgeteer [25-50] + Gizmos [5-15] is 30-65 points, not unlike Magery 3+, while Alchemy at 20-30 isn't much different from 1 point in dozens of spells in terms of coverage and point cost. Most of what wizards with Magery 3+ and dozens of spells do is significantly flashier and more game-breaking than whipping out a few potions . . .

Yes this is exactly the problem, there are no traditional mages, and those that would be comparable to magery 3 are very very very rare. We keep clear of gizmos because they violate continuity in a minor way. You decide on the spot what you where carrying. Oh, by the way, I had this all along. It's fine for most games, but not these. If a player doesn't take rations with him to travel, well, that's his fault there's no IQ test to say the character actually remembered, and rations don't suddenly materialize in the backpack that up to that point weight zero...
I'm doing a bit of a charicature here, offcourse, the advantage can be explained in other ways, but this is how we feel about gizmos. And besides, what we feel we need is rules for a different sort of alchemical creation process, not a way to have the potions on me. I don't want to skip the process, we want the process to be different.
I realize you can't offer a solution, but your points of view have been very helpful this far, thanks guys.

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's fairly useful and powerful. I'd probably rate it at -20%, which is what sticking "Spells Only" on Modular Abilities gives you, according to Powers. Before TL4, I'd argue that hasty potion-brewing is the main use of Gadgeteer anyway (although the aforementioned alchemist also uses it for things like customized ballistae, incendiaries, and gimmicky inventions such as "quick-release backpacks").

Makes sense, thank you.

As for the "grossly cinematic" I was refering to the (almost) giant red flashing labels of "This level is definately unsuitable for realistic campaigns!" and "Note that this ability is not realistic!"... and GURPS doesn't often use exclamation marks unless it really means it.
The other problem is that Gadgeteer allows the character to invent new potions, from what I understand it's the research of new recepies that would be affected, not the construction of the actual items. After all, -20% for Magic can only refer to researching new spells, since there is not "making" of magic. And I don't want him to come up with new potions, at least not rapidly, just make potions without spending weeks tied to one place.

I mean, it's hard to justify the alchemical process taking more than a week, chemically speaking it's just hard to imagine. Sure there's the mana "sedimentation" and whatnot, but even if it took ages, I find it more believable (and this is ENTIRELY subjective, I'm not saying the RAW sucks, it's just the coating doesn't fit my own tastes)... if the process took a few hours or days at most, but the elixir had to sit for long periods under certain conditions to become empowered. Or the various steps of the process, so you'd make up to Stage 1, then have to wait a week or so until the mana sets in, and can then proceed to Stage 2... and so on, untill all the magically empowered components are made into an elixir. The total length of time need not be shorter, but the fact that the process doesn't need constant supervision or a fixed location lets the characters adventure while things boil at home...

[David Johnston]

The _simplest_ approach to faster potion making is to ask the gm to cut you some slack here. This can be surprisingly effective.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

The _simplest_ approach to faster potion making is to ask the gm to cut you some slack here. This can be surprisingly effective.

Well yes, but discussing the situation helps to iron out a few details before it actually starts. Cause if you realize something's not kosher half-way through the meal, the damage is already done. We're not fond of "rewinding" a game, although in extreme cases of screw ups we have done it when the damage was recent.

The thing is, I know the 8h/day watch imposed on alchemists is nothing but game balance. It's the same time a job takes, and the same time enchanting takes. Theres no reason to assume that the alchemist must spend 8h consecutive hours per day doing stuff to his pots. There's no reason why a Shapeshifting Elixir should take more time than a Healing Elixir other than game balance. For all we know it could actually be easier to find the ingredients, and cheaper, and faster. The real world isn't "fair" and balanced.
However, in a game balance is important. Sure the GM can just handwave the time away into a few days, but this would have implications for the character, for other alchemists, etc. If just for the character he has a considerable edge over NPCs and should pay for such with CP. And so on.
We'll keep the dificulty scale, for obvious reasons. And the relative scale of time, but we'd like a way to make Herbalists and Alchemists not tied to one place for weeks or months at a time. So an alternate method of alchemy seems called for.
How to reduce time AND/OR increase mobility without screwing up balance with other skills, powers, etc?

The bigges problem with Gadgeteer, if I understand correctly is that it's for inventions. This isn't, it's for production of well known items. Craft.

[Kromm]

You could always apply Time Spent (p. B346) to reduce time, perhaps quite radically. Then allow various resource-based bonuses to offset the large penalties. Perhaps alchemists could claim +1 to +TL/2 for equipment (p. B345) for both the quality of their lab and the quality of their formulary, and get a further +1/+2 for a success/critical success on a Scrounging roll to cut corners on ingredients. This would fit the whole mold of alchemists being sponsored by kings and having rooms full of expensive equipment. Perhaps herbalists could roll vs. Naturalist and get +(margin of success/2) to their Herb Lore roll for finding the best possible ingredients -- or lots of ingredients, allowing a brute-force approach or just huge amounts of a very weak, hastily brewed elixir. With typical bonuses in the +3 to +6 range, time could be reduced by 30-60%, compressing a 40-hour work week into as little as a long, 16-hour workday. Taking a day out of adventuring so that herb-guy can brew healing potions seems absolutely fair and in-genre.

[Gudiomen]

Great tip! Now that you mentioned it, I remember the Low-Tech approach to smithing, where the quality of the raw materials you could scavenge or make with Metalurgy would give you a margin bonus to your crafting skill later.

I assumed the Time Spent rules could be applied to alchemy with some moderation, but without a way to boost skill it made usable levels ridiculously high.

The weak elixirs also make for good variety and are particularly fitting for the setting, a weaker form of the invulnerability elixir could give +1DR instead of +3DR, but take 1/3 of the time to make. Or an elixir that only lasted half the normal duration, and so on... this allows elixirs to be substantially wattered down and more pratical.

Compressing the work hours is the final punch I needed.

I think I have enough ideas to start putting this on paper and discuss it with the GM. Thankyou all.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

I'm mostly a GM, but at the moment I'm coming up with a character for a friend's future setting. It's fantasy, not very standard, but difficult to explain. Think "Dragonbone Chair".

The character in question is a wonderor, he belonged to a very old tribe that due to internal reasons dissipated into the world. The tone of the tribal background is "dark celtic".

To represent the spiritual/shamanistic aspects of the character I chose Herb Lore, wich would add a fantastic element, without the mess of the magic system wich the GM also doesn't like. I know some of the more fantastic elixirs like shapeshifting will be out of bounds, but that's not a problem. However, some concerns came up when I was building the character sheet:

- Time: did anyone do achemist adventurers? Seems like the time to brew potions make it prohibitive and root you to place. Aside from grossly cinematic advantages, how do you work around this?
- How much would Gadgeteer (Only Herb Lore) cost? What's the discount?
- "Lab": GURPS Magic mentions that Herb Lore uses herbs and not weird exotic ingredients, but doesn't mention much in lab space. Most herbalists from fiction I can picture used pretty much just a cauldron and a few other stuff, not really an expensive lab. Thoughts?

- Charms: since the cost to make a charm is the same as to make the elixir (only time increases) what's to stop a player to start with several Amulets and Talismans? Should you stop a player from doing so?
- How exactly do I know if something is an Amulet or a Talisman? Magic suggests that defensive elixirs become Amulets, but then, would a Charm of Invulnerability grant the character +3DR as long as it's worn? Or would it be an Amulet... activated and recharged?

I know some of this is setting specific, but neither the GM nor I have much exerience with Alchemy and Herb Lore...
Any other considerations about Herb Lore or Alchemy are welcome, even if you just put your experience out there, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

The cost of a charm is TEN TIMES the cost of the elixir. The extra time takes extra money.

However, a number of charms are within reach of signature gear. Multiple doses (penalty on skill, additonal materials per dose, same time to make) make a charm like healing very effective for characters. 3 or 4 dice of healing per recharge (1 day) cylcle is pretty neat.

Your GM may want to put restrictions on this.

The standard alchemist is a NPC, who is tied up making elixirs.

Fantasy covered variations of them.

What it missed was the Indiana Jones type alchemist, who goes out into the field to find the ingredients the alchemist guild needs. He or she is of necessity an adventuring type, who makes elixirs now and again when the group is laid up for a week or more.

The exception is expensive. The Quick Alchemist uses the 50 pt version of Gadgeteer. He can make elixirs iin minutes instead of weeks, 2 minutes per day normally required.

When this was first introduced back in GURPS Wizards, it was highly suggested that the ingredients the quick alchemist used were 'generic', that is used as a numeric place holder for monetary value. Ifyou mad an elixir with a recipe cost of $400 you'd mark off $400 from your ingredients list.

The alternative is financially fatal to the character in play. If your character had to have separate components for each elixir he MIGHT have to make in play, he could easily burn through several thousand bucks worth per adventure, and GURPS adventures generally don't pay those kinds of cash rewards.. Even with generic components, it's still a financially risky proposition.

Signature gear would help here, but as written, the use of those ingredients consists of the character voluntarily destroying them, which means the points spent for the gear are lost and you don't get replacements.

If the GM will allow using ingredients to not count against destroying the gear, you're set. You'll be able to replace the ingredients for the next game session.

If not, I suggest enhancing the sig gear with a +50% cosmic enhancement (countermeasure) that immunizes them from being counted as lost if used.

Finally though look to the rules on Ritual Magic, use Alchemy (or in your case Herb Lore) as the core skill and the elixir list as your available spells (Essentially you have one College/Path, call it 'Materia', wich is M/VH and defaults to Herb Lore -6. Casting time is based on the number of weeks in whatever units of time the GM feels comfortable with. Turns, minutes etc. Skill penalties apply.

Beyond Finally see Powers, Trasmutaion with the range being ingredients to elixir. I believe I wrote that up and posted it here somewhere, if you want to do a search for it.