Obscure (Magic) and Invisibility (Magic)?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

Switchable on Invisibility is +10%, so I agree with Bruno, Always On is not worth more than -10%

He doesn't have Defensive on it, so it is going to also block his own divining, as well as friendly attempts to cast information magic on him. Dunno if that qualifies it for the -50% modifier for AO Obscure, but it does seem a bit more limiting than just the -10% 'socially inconvenient' form of AO.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

He doesn't have Defensive on it, so it is going to also block his own divining, as well as friendly attempts to cast information magic on him. Dunno if that qualifies it for the -50% modifier for AO Obscure, but it does seem a bit more limiting than just the -10% 'socially inconvenient' form of AO.

Unless this character has bought his own divining abilities, that's not a valid argument. It essentially makes divining abilities a Taboo Trait, which is a zero point feature in GURPS.

Seeing as regular folks walking down the street are hardly likely to notice the 12-foot-wide hole in the mana-sphere, trading the normal social problems with inconvenience in receiving divinations seems fair to me. I say inconvenience because there are ways to work around this sort of problem - perform readings for close companions, for someone or something that would be a target of his actions, etc.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Unless this character has bought his own divining abilities, that's not a valid argument. It essentially makes divining abilities a Taboo Trait, which is a zero point feature in GURPS.

Hmm... point. In that light, -10% does seem more reasonable. It only would become a greater inconvenience if the character actually had a sense that was being blocked by its own Obscure.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Hmm... point. In that light, -10% does seem more reasonable. It only would become a greater inconvenience if the character actually had a sense that was being blocked by its own Obscure.

So a human PC who for some reason constantly emits Obscure (Radio) cannot claim -50% for Always On? Weird that it isn't mentioned in either Powers or Basic.

But what I'm more interested in is what qualifies as 'one sense', and what is 'extended':

Is Detect one sense? Is 'anything with the -10% Power Modifier' one sense? What about spells or cinematic skills (Blind Fighting, anybody)? I'm currently thinking about magic, but the definitions might come in handy later on.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Molokh

So a human PC who for some reason constantly emits Obscure (Radio) cannot claim -50% for Always On? Weird that it isn't mentioned in either Powers or Basic.

As per RAW he can. We're just of a consensus that it would be kinda dumb if he does :D It's a "Disadvantage is not a disadvantage unless it disadvantages you" situation.

Originally Posted by Molokh

But what I'm more interested in is what qualifies as 'one sense', and what is 'extended':

Is Detect one sense? Is 'anything with the -10% Power Modifier' one sense? What about spells or cinematic skills (Blind Fighting, anybody)? I'm currently thinking about magic, but the definitions might come in handy later on.

"all Detects" are definately not one sense. Detect (Iron), Detect (Magnetic fields), Detect (Magic), Detect (Intelligence) are pretty unrelated.

What we're looking at is things like "The Electromagnetic Spectrum". Normally, humans see Visible light. Gurps has some predefined "bands" of electromagnetic radiation that you can One can get Obscure (Visible Light; Extended: Infra-red; Extended: Ultra-Violet; Extended: Radio; Extended: Radar) which will cover large chunks of the EM spectrum. If you use the option from Powers, you could take Extended: All EM Radiation, +100% and totally block all of it, but you wouldn't block sonar, vibration sense, touch, smell, chemosensors, etc.

If you had Obscure (Visible light; extended: All EM Radiation), you would block Detect (Heat), Detect (Radio) etc by Obscuring those sources of radiation.

If you had Obscure (Audible sound; extended: All Sound Frequencies), not only would you be silent to humans, but you'd block Subsonic Hearing, Ultrasonic Hearing, and Scanning Sense (Sonar), along with Detect (Motion; Hearing Based, -20%) and similar abilities.

For more exotic senses, it definitely depends on what's going on. "Magical senses" sounds like a category equivalent to "EM Radiation" or "Vibrations" or "Chemical detection" (sight, hearing, and scent). Scrying would be one subset of magical senses. Auras would be another. If you take Extended: All magical senses, +100% it could quite possibly block an awful lot of exotic Detects.

Essentially, you're not blocking an advantage, you're blocking something descriptive from the game world that people use advantages (or default character abilities) to detect.

[laserdog]

Static (Magic) (Clairvoyance Only -40%) [20]

might be another way to do it?

[Kromm]

First, Powers notes this:

Obscure (Clairsentience) often has Extended for Detect, Divination, or Para-Radar (+20% each) and Limited, Psi (-20%).

That's intended to be the psi version of what you want. Because for magic, divination is nominally more prevalent than remote sensing, I'd start with Obscure (Divination) ("affects all attempts to gather facts from within the area through such means as Information spells") and make the other items Extended. So the basic ability would be this:

Obscure (Divination; Extended, Clairsentience, Detect, and Para-Radar, +60%; Limited, Magic, -20%)

Divination will block Seeker, Trace, etc. Clairsentience will foil Wizard Eye and so on. Detect will negate Detect Magic on your belongings and all similar spells. And Para-Radar amounts to Dark Vision, See Invisible, and so on, where magic is concerned. Remember that magic spells are very, very numerous . . . so each form of Obscure ought to cut a bigger swath than it does vs. advantages.

You want it to be undetectable by those looking for the null zone, too, so you'll want Stealthy, +100%.

And yes, Always On, -50% is canonical, and would apply here. It's a real limitation . . . without Defensive, +50% to cancel it out, your Obscure is going to subtract from your own magical detection abilities. Even with Defensive, it's going to interfere with your friends' ability to find you if you're in trouble. And of course in a fantasy universe, there are entities that don't use magic to find you -- and since your Stealthy only hides you from magic in this case, you'll be a beacon for demigods, demons, undead, extradimensional monsters, etc., that rely on cosmic, divine, elemental, moral, nature, or spirit abilities to detect the supernatural. All of these guys add your Obscure level as a bonus to find you, lock onto you, and eat your brain.

So:

Obscure 10 (Divination; Always On, -50%; Extended, Clairsentience, Detect, and Para-Radar, +60%; Limited, Magic, -20%; Stealthy, +100%) [38]

You, all your possessions, and everything within 2 yards are at -10 to be sensed by magic, directly or indirectly. This is considerably more potent than Magic Resistance or Static, because it affects mages using Wizard Eye or Hawk Vision to see you from afar, Images of the Past to see the entire area later on, and even wizards who happen to be looking at you with Dark Vision instead of natural vision. Spells that are neither cast on you nor cast on your area of effect are kept from spotting you.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Kromm

And yes, Always On, -50% is canonical, and would apply here. It's a real limitation . . . without Defensive, +50% to cancel it out, your Obscure is going to subtract from your own magical detection abilities. Even with Defensive, it's going to interfere with your friends' ability to find you if you're in trouble.

Hmm, dunno, Kromm... sounds suspect. What about the point raised comparing those abilities (your own magical detects) to "taboo traits". Characters don't start with such senses as intrinsic abilities in most games. And if the -50% does apply, then AO + Defensive costs the same as vanilla Obscure, allowing the user to be protected from hostile scrying at all times, but be free to use whatever detects he has at no penalty: That sounds like it should be a net advantage rather than a +0% feature, to me.

[Kromm]

The whole point of Always On is that:

1. You're always at -level to use certain abilities or senses.

2. There's always somebody out there who gets +level to find you.

If the first isn't true, then you have Defensive as well and you've effectively had to buy off the limitation. However, the second is always true, even with Stealthy, and a problem. Of course, in universes where nobody can detect the ability because it masks the only thing that can detect it, I'd agree that the -50% is bogus. But that's probably not many universes.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The whole point of Always On is that:

1. You're always at -level to use certain abilities or senses.

2. There's always somebody out there who gets +level to find you.

If the first isn't true, then you have Defensive as well and you've effectively had to buy off the limitation. However, the second is always true, even with Stealthy, and a problem. Of course, in universes where nobody can detect the ability because it masks the only thing that can detect it, I'd agree that the -50% is bogus. But that's probably not many universes.

I don't quite understand how something other than magic detect Obscure (Magic...), unless it's Detect (Obscure). Could you elaborate?

Also, what about the addition to #1 that allies are at -level too?