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Old 08-16-2019, 01:13 AM   #1
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Partial armor

I'm re-posting this question and my answer from the main forum, where I don't think it belongs:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnotherJarhead View Post
I gave it a good Look, but I didn't see any mention of piece-armor.

Now, I realize this opens a can of worms, but maybe we can address this on a very basic level? To at least add some realism and/or flavor to the game?

What about the guy who just buys and wears a chainmail shirt? Offering no protection to unarmored limbs or head. But also being less encumbering?

Would you say ... yeah that's just dandy mate, for normal attacks he gets the full 3 points of damage reduction, but any called shot or any other normal reason that something should target a limb or head shot, he receives 0 protection. Is that a fair trade off?

Would you even want to do this as a character? Maybe institute that the reduced encumberance also related to a reduction in the DX penalty by one point? Maybe MA by a small bit? maybe not.

Being that Half-plate has the worst numbers, would it be a good candidate to consider this main torso only protection, in exchange for a small reduction in DX penalty?

I feel that overall, it sounds pretty good, and would add some flavor, but I can't help but think that sooner or later a player is gonna have a **** fit, when his brave warrior with his fancy $3000 fine breast plate that is accustomed to having 6 hits reduced, is of no value to that lucky strike on his sword arm by that Orc leader with his war axe.

" it's just a flesh wound " !

but it does add flavor to the game

Anybody have input on piece-armor?

** (again, just keeping it simple, I don't want three different armor "types" on one character, just exploring the archer who maybe wears a boiled leather breast plate, sans all other protection.)
Well, piece armor generally works just fine in GURPS... but GURPS is a bit different from TFT. One of the main reasons it works easily in GURPS is because there are almost zero direct DX & MA penalties for armor - mainly just the effect of weight, which does affect both movement and (defensive) combat ability in GURPS.

It would work in TFT, but would throw off the balance of designs, and the question which would affect balance would be about how much of a DX & MA penalty someone has for various combinations of armor on different body parts.

It also would create a level of detail with consequences that I tend to think many TFT players might balk at, given how quickly they tend to balk at anything that increases complexity.

i.e. Depending on the answer to the DX & MA penalty question, there might seem to be several cases where fighters have advantages over others IF they pick some peculiar armor mixes, and/or IF they go for aimed shots, which may annoy players who either find some fault with those results, or who simply prefer to be able to make a fully armored character and not think about aiming at body parts, and who don't want to feel at a disadvantage if they don't.

Another issue might be not really liking what the Aimed Shots and/or Crippling Blows rules do to TFT combat dynamics. (Not that I necessarily feel that way - but having used those rules a lot, I can see some reasons why some people might not prefer to use them.
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:06 AM   #2
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Partial armor

Yup. We did this. Body armour doesn't protect limbs and comes with one less DX minus. Pretty simple.
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:54 AM   #3
JustAnotherJarhead
 
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Default Re: Partial armor

First off, thanks Skarg for the forum move.

I have Zero experience with Gurps.

MikMod, I guess it's That simple eh' lol

To make it clear, I was just talking about a simple option, breastplate or full suit of appropriate armor. No mixing it up, no different pieces here and there, nothing complicated, we're not trying to re-engineer the game.

It's a real walk down a slippery slope for the player who chooses this route anyways.
It's all hunkie dorie that you are sporting your shiney new chainmail shirt, and still having 3 hits of protection from default general attacks, but...

The first goblin that puts an arrow in your neck on a called shot, you are gonna be crying all the way to the physicker , where if you were "fully" armored, you could argue your chain coif n cap offered a reduction.

I looked, and this rule basically follows the DX penalty scale for Barding, so it's easily referenced.

I think you would have to make reasonable concessions for MA, but really maybe not, it's still gonna add flavor. I'd be thinking about saving throws like swimming related incidents etc.. more than MA.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:13 AM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Partial armor

MikMod, what did you have the MA effects be?

Unless you ignore encumbrance anyway, you'll also want to know the weight.

All of which you can do, at whatever level of detail and customization you want, but there are going to be effects, and those effects can be gamed.

Aimed shots in TFT are pretty difficult to make, especially for ordinary fighters without quite high DX. But then for the people with enough DX to pull it off frequently, it's not so hard, and if they can do enough damage, the effects are pretty severe. I'm not saying that's unwanted, but it is what it is, is different from not using those rules, and some people may be surprised or chafe if they're used to not doing that.

For balance purposes, I would tend to use the optional rule for random chance of hits to specific locations, if people are using this rule, (minus (or modified) the part about being automatically knocked unconscious, unless people want that). That gives more of a down-side to partial armor that doesn't require your foes to sacrifice a chunk of DX to take advantage of it.

I'd point out too that any options that end up costing no DX and no MA penalty start to look like freebies everyone or most people should take, especially if ignoring encumbrance from weight.
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:48 AM   #5
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Partial armor

What about a simple rule like this:

Any hit made against a figure wearing partial armour, in which all three dice show the same number, ignores armour completely.

Example. If your Orc opponent has DX 9, the armour will be bypassed on 1.1.1 (3 and auto hit and triple damage), 2.2.2 (6 total) and 3.3.3 (9 total).

If the Orc had 12 DX 4.4.4 would also bypass armour.
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Old 08-17-2019, 10:36 AM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Partial armor

Mechanics where you look at certain die-roll values like "triples" introduce a side-effect where certain adjDX values have more or less chance to get that effect.

Some may not mind that, but I'd rather just use the existing optional rule for random hit location in TFT, since it doesn't have that issue and would have some logical cause/effect (i.e. the specific locations with armor would be protected and the others not, and the chances of hitting each one are already considered, and have rules for damage effects).

Although, the part about your suggestion where the armored parts are more likely to be hit, regardless of where they are, could represent that a fighter would try to put their armored parts in harm's way... though it doesn't take into account skill level, positions, situation, etc. I'm thinking of gladiator armor where someone has a heavily armored arm and puts that toward a foe, for example... but then attacks from other directions probably would not hit that arm.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:55 AM   #7
JustAnotherJarhead
 
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Default Re: Partial armor

I like that Skarg brought up the armored gladiator arm, I always envisioned a scenario like that of just valuing the arm as a small shield. Not affecting game play greatly but adding flavor.

In reference to all the other comments above, they are all playable, but I'd like to get back to simplicity, it's either armored and subject to an easier strike, or it's not, and going to be more guarded, and although vulnerable to trauma, a more difficult target to hit.

I think in average gaming, it won't be an imbalancer, especially in the early days of a 30-34 pt. character's adventuring life. I mean other than the sniper, how many 32 pt. bad guys are taking aimed shots ? Probably not any more than beginning adventurers' and those who do feel lucky and give it a heroic attempt, usually can't wield large damaging weapons as well so damage tends to be less.

I like to see armor in a game, I just don't like the party looking like a detail of Knights on their way to slay a dragon, when partial armored styles are very popular, and fun to play. Mix it up, lets see some studded leather, some scalemail, a bronze breast plate.

Some will argue that a half platemail armored character that only receives a -3 to DX instead of a -4 is gaming the system, I don't think we will see much impact on who lives or dies in a campaign.
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:00 AM   #8
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Partial armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnotherJarhead View Post
I think in average gaming, it won't be an imbalancer, especially in the early days of a 30-34 pt. character's adventuring life. I mean other than the sniper, how many 32 pt. bad guys are taking aimed shots ? Probably not any more than beginning adventurers' and those who do feel lucky and give it a heroic attempt, usually can't wield large damaging weapons as well so damage tends to be less.
This.

Partial armour is really helpful for beginning characters because they're not really facing people who can take advantage of the poorer protection. Sure, you might take a javelin in the leg or arm sometimes and that's really bad, but then you would at least have had the chance to hit someone first. Yes, crippling hits get worse, but again beginning characters don't tend to be wearing heavy armour if they want to be able to hit, so the 'loss' isn't as big a deal.

When characters are up against more deadly foes, then it gives them a choice of a delay to avoid armour, or not. So older characters tend to go full something-or-other.

Plus partial armour gives the high-DX weedy snipers in the party a little more fun when it is on the bad guys :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnotherJarhead View Post
I like to see armor in a game, I just don't like the party looking like a detail of Knights on their way to slay a dragon, when partial armored styles are very popular, and fun to play. Mix it up, lets see some studded leather, some scalemail, a bronze breast plate.
Yeah - me too, and it doesn't have to kick-start 68 pages of house rules. :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
MikMod, what did you have the MA effects be?

I'd point out too that any options that end up costing no DX and no MA penalty start to look like freebies everyone or most people should take, especially if ignoring encumbrance from weight.
Honestly, we didn't worry too much about encumbrance and the MA stayed the same - it wasn't a big deal. You just swapped limb protection for 1 DX and that was it! :)

It added some flavour and helped early PCs (with added risk) but it was hardly a game-changer.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:31 AM   #9
JustAnotherJarhead
 
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Default Re: Partial armor

yeah, I'm totally good with Leaving MA the same.

you wanna run fast, stay away from armor, armor is heavy, armor restricts movement.

and doubly so for swimming, you wanna try and swim in your chain shirt...good luck.
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