help with sailing ships please

[Philomath]

Already have it (LT that is) Bill. One of my all-time favorites.

Good stuff Hal, thanks. Any links you want to send me I'll happily eat up. PM or post here.

[MrId]

Originally Posted by hal

Without "Cheating" and using GURPS GREECE to check your work against, try building this one in GURPS VEHICLES ;)

Here you go. All stats 3rd edition, done with GURPS Vehicles:

Pentekonter (TL 2)
Subassemblies: Body (3926 cf), 1 35' Mast
Features: Floatation Hull, Fine Lines
Components:
Propulsion: 52 Rowing Stations, 1 Square Sail (Area: 490)
Controls: Primative
Crew: Master, First Mate, Pilot, 52 Rowers, 6 Sailors, 15 Soldiers, 2 Medics, 1 Service Crew (Cook). 79 Total
Crew Accomodations: Short Occupancy. Roomy Crew Station (Pilot), 52 Normal Seats (Rowers), 18 Normal Seats (Soldiers, Medics, Service Crew), 8 Exposed Roomy Standing Room (Master, First Mate, Sailors)
Cargo Space: 200 cf (Provisions for 5 days take up 94.8 cf. The rest, I assume, is filled with ships stores, weapons, ammunition (i.e., arrows), and some personal items for the crew)
Empty Space: 0 cf
Assemblies:
Body (3926 cf, ~1493 square feet surface area, 1120 HP)
Mast (~4.2 cf, ~15.8 square feet surface area, 31 HP)
Structure: Light, Wooden.
Armor: DR 4 Expensive Wooden Armor on all faces
Top Deck: Area: 654 square feet
Ram (+1 per die of collision damage)
Statistics:
Empty Weight: 23647.55 lbs
Usual Internal Payload (100 cf of provisions at 12 lbs/cf, 100 cf of cargo at 20 lbs/cf, 79 crew at 200 lbs): 19000 lbs
Loaded Weight (lbs): 42647.55 lbs
Loaded Weight (tons): ~21.3
Volume: 3930.288 cf
Size Modifier: 6
Price: $13,575.51
Health: 10
Performance:
Hydrodynamic Drag: 81.3
Water Speed (Rowing): 8.8 mph/7.7 kts
Water Speed (Sailing, Fresh Breeze): 13.8 mph/12 kts
Water Acceleration (Rowing): .1 mph/s
Water Acceleration (Sailing): .5 mph/s
Water Maneuver Rating: 0.02
Water Stability Rating: 2
Water Deceleration: .1 mph/s
Draft: 3 feet

As you can see, I made the crew size bigger. One could conceivably make the sailors, medics, and service crew part of the same contingent that rows, reducing the crew to 71 (76 with 20 soldiers). I didn't know how much cargo to put in, so I just doubled the space needed for provisions. It actually performs substantially better than the historical version, and could probably get going quite fast for a ram, assuming the rowers used extra effort. ST 10 rowers are assumed, although higher ST wouldn't be unusual. I'd think rowers would get quite a workout on a regular basis. I assumed the occupancy would be short -- adding hammocks for the crew would make the ship much bigger. I read somewhere (probably in a game manual, so I'm not that sure it's accurate) that rowed ships like this often pulled ashore at night and the crew slept there, instead of aboard ship. There are no castles (superstructures), although they could be added. I'm not sure what I would put in those spaces, though. I could also add a corvus, if you like. There is no artillery. I assume the soldiers include at least some archers, because otherwise the only weapon is the ram. Displacement is an issue, as Vehicles implies displacement should be about 1 ton per 35 cf of body volume, which would make it 112 tons, although the actual mass if fairly close to your displacement figure. Draft is also close, but Vehicles does not calculate freeboard. Somewhere on these boards and in the Basic Set is the formula to convert empty weight into 4e HP.

I don't have GURPS Greece -- waiting till it's on e23. I do have Low-Tech, but I haven't cross compared whatever is in there to this one yet.

So, what do you think? Anything else you’d like to see? I was able to do this one in a little more than an hour, once I put aside the time to do it, so I could probably do some more on a semi-daily basis.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by MrId

As you can see, I made the crew size bigger. One could conceivably make the sailors, medics, and service crew part of the same contingent that rows, reducing the crew to 71 (76 with 20 soldiers).

Well, with 52 oarsmen it's not really a pentekonter anymore. :)

I didn't know how much cargo to put in, so I just doubled the space needed for provisions. It actually performs substantially better than the historical version, and could probably get going quite fast for a ram, assuming the rowers used extra effort .ST 10 rowers are assumed, although higher ST wouldn't be unusually. I'd think rowers would get quite a workout on a regular basis.
[/quote]
That's more likely to result in advantages like Fit and extra FP than more ST. Also, the rowing speed is quite possibly pretty close to correct - many sources that pre-date the construction of the replica (actually near-replica) trier/trireme in the late 80s (IIRC) give rather low speeds. The replica managed something like 8-10 knots with a volunteer crew of British university students with next to no training, and it was overweight and tended to hog more than a historical example probably did.

I assumed the occupancy would be short -- adding hammocks for the crew would make the ship much bigger. I read somewhere (probably in a game manual, so I'm not that sure it's accurate) that rowed ships like this often pulled ashore at night and the crew slept there, instead of aboard ship.

That is correct.

There are no castles (superstructures), although they could be added.

They'd be ahistorical, IIRC.

I could also add a corvus, if you like.

The Romans only used the corvus for a grief period (the First Punic War), and at that time ships were fairly big compared to this example (and the Romans packed a lot of troops on thiers, to make boarding effective). They are an abberation, really.

I assume the soldiers include at least some archers, because otherwise the only weapon is the ram.

For some warships of the 'period' this would be correct.

Displacement is an issue, as Vehicles implies displacement should be about 1 ton per 35 cf of body volume, which would make it 112 tons, although the actual mass if fairly close to your displacement figure.

For ships this is the maximum displacement - more than that and the ship will sink (and in fact for fine lines, etc., you'll want more volume per ton). In fact, I'd be surprised is even 25% of such a ship was submerged, and that means about 1000 cubic feet displacement, which means about 30-32 tons at the outside. Your 21.3 tons is probably close enough.

Draft is also close, but Vehicles does not calculate freeboard. Somewhere on these boards and in the Basic Set is the formula to convert empty weight into 4e HP.

Total hull height is probably 2-3 times draft. However freeboard will be much less - you need to keep the rowers fairly low down because of topweight issues, and that means the oars will only be 18" or 2' above the waterline, and that's your effective freeboard. Rowed warships didn't go to sea if there were any sort of waves.

[MrId]

Originally Posted by hal

I don't have the time available at the moment to comment on what you produced versus what was in GURPS GREECE, but when I get the chance, I will get to a comparison and let you know <g>. What I should do perhaps is get you to open your own thread on TL 2 ships so that someone can do a search on TL 2 ships and find your work. Bear in mind too, that if you intend to keep adding to it as a growing body of work, that you may want to set up your own web page and make it available to all GURPS fans.

I eagerly await your insights :)

A "Low-Tech/Fantasy Ships Thread" in the style of the 25-point and 50-point characters thread is a good idea, too. A web site sounds like too much work for right now. Maybe once I get a bigger collection going.

Originally Posted by Rupert

[snip a lot of useful commentary]

Thanks, your insights have confirmed a lot of my suspicions. I figured I wasn't too far off, but Iron Age seafaring is something I only know a little about, and I didn't put the ship through Wikipedia or Google, which I usually do with my designs. One thing that does make me a little nuts about the current edition of Vehicles is that there is no easy way to estimate length other than size modifier.

However, I hope that gives the original poster an idea of the GURPS Vehicles output, and maybe a useful ship. It would be relatively easy to update to TL 3, if that suits the campaign better. TL 4 would be more of a challenge, but it could be a small version of a Lepanto-era galley.

[Philomath]

Originally Posted by MrId

However, I hope that gives the original poster an idea of the GURPS Vehicles output, and maybe a useful ship.

I never did have too much of a problem with the output of Vehicles, it is the input I am weak on. Although, thanks to everyone's help I'm less so now than at the start of the weekend.

I third the idea of a weekly (-ish) ship stats thread. It's a great idea.

[JAW]

Here's two..

http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/v_drakkar.htm
http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/v_knarr.htm

[damedley]

I have a specific question: my player's party is looking to charter a TL 3 cog (or any ship, really) to travel around 750 miles. Low Tech says cogs can travel a little over 200 miles per day, but they prevailing winds and currents are with the players so I'm rounding it up to 250.

First question: Does this sound reasonable?
Second question: How much would this cost?

[hal]

Here are some urls I've accumulated over time...


http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Provisions/Vademecum(1707)_p149.html
Added a working "shorter link" here

http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/lennon/897/ships.html

http://www.bruzelius.info/nautica/Rigging/Vademecum(1707)_p131.html

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~jacktar/yourown1.html

http://www.hamilton-scourge.city.ham...a/glossary.htm

http://www.hms.org.uk/discus/

http://www.hms-victory.com/

http://www.hobbyworldinc.com/

http://ils.unc.edu/maritime/home.shtml

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/sail/rattle_s.htm

http://www.larsonweb.com/Transfer/Mi.../SailRules.htm

http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/marit.htm

http://www.rodlangton.com/napoleonic/frame.htm

http://www.naut-res-guild.org/

http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/gen1.htm

http://hegewisch.net/blindkat/pirates/ships.html

http://home.flash.net/~dadis/other/other.htm

http://www.sailingwarships.com/

http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/INTRO.HTM

http://www.theageofsail.com/

(the Articles of War - good site)
http://www.io.com/gibbonsb/articles.html

(MASSIVE material and links)
http://www.boat-links.com/

http://sailing-ships.oktett.net/square-rigging.html

http://web.telia.com/~u46103669/skepp/victory.html

I've not included any URLS for the USS CONSTITUTION, as I'm sure your google-fu is up to the task. Ultimately however - these URL's are but a tip of the iceberg in what you can find online. The idea here is to keep an open mind on what you find at these sites giving you ideas on what to google the next time around.

Also gentlemen, if you can get your hands on a copy or two of HEART OF OAK or PRIVATEERS & GENTLEMEN (Heart of oak is the wargame rules, the other two books make a complete set of PRIVATEERS & GENTLEMEN), I heartily suggest you do so for use with the Age of Nelson era. Also, if you're inclined, pick up a copy of Wooden Ships and Iron men if you can on EBAY, or perhaps consider the purchase of CLOSE ACTION here.

In any event, if I can help in any way on other things, send me an email. Warning: I suggest you indentify yourself in a way that doesn't look like spam, as I liberally delete emails that look like spam ;)

**** This will remain for a short time longer, get the urls you want before it is too late. ****

[Philomath]

Wow. Thanks Hal. That was basically what I was looking for. I found about a third (maybe less) of those. I was here to post what I'd found, now I need to read through what you sent first. Hopefully I'll have a summary up by tomorrow.

[Chunk]

Another one to look at, is the Pilot's Almanac for Columbia Games' HARN.
(http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin...roduct_id=4002)

It contains information about how the ships are crewed and sailed, and also contains a basic design system for creating new models. Although the information is designed for HARN, I can't see any problem with adapting this product to use with GURPS. (Yes, I own it and use it quite extensively.)