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Old 09-12-2018, 03:16 AM   #61
AurochDigital
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
I totally understand that there's not really money for development at this time, but I"m concerned that one of the things that is passively hindering the ability of the game to grow beyond a certain point is the missing core units (IIRC, that would be LGEVs and GEV-PCs), which are needed to recreate a number of "classic" and more recent scenarios, especially the ones in the scenario books. I'm curious as to what level of development would be needed to actually add them since I would think that simply adding additional unit types should be relatively simple, though I acknowledge that not knowing the ins-and-outs of Ogre development it's probably more complicated than I realize.
Of of the units that we didn't get time to add in, most are pretty straightforward to add yes. They need 3D models creating from the AutoCAD files, a bunch of connectors and textures adding so they work with the game system. More the issues that that it still takes time, which costs.

Some of the units - for example the cruise missile - are not complex 3D models, but do need a new game system, which in turn takes code time and then in turn takes testing time for how it integrates into the main system (SP and MP).
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:19 AM   #62
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
I also recently sent a log report about a basic functionality UI issue in the Scenario Creator, which I had sent last year and it persists.
Sorry to hear that Tim - we did update to fix that bug. If you're still having issues with it, get us the log and we'll take another look. Thanks.
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:34 AM   #63
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
I'd be very interested to hear the thought process on unit selection.
So as development rolled onwards, we're always in a process of examining what we've got left to do, what are risk areas and what is coming in as planned. So there is an ongoing process of having to move things from the development plan into the backlog as we move forward. So we didn't take a single decision for all of them, rather ongoing decisions, like 'dang the UI is proving to be more complex for overun edge cases, we need more art and code time, so what are our options?'. (That's not an exact quote, but you get the point!)

So it goes roughly..

Not complex in rules terms, but art time. (mainly Light GEV, GEV-PC, Fencer,Doppelsoldner & Trucks) However I felt these were the least 'iconic' of the games units so when we had to make hard choices on art, I moved these into the backlog.

Theen more complex units (mainly Cruise Missiles, Vulcan & Combat Engineers, Ogrethulhu) all needed more rules (so code) as well as art time and also were newer, so less iconic part of the game. So again, when push came to shove they got moved into backlog. With these the scenarios connected to them also got moved into backlog.

I'm still gutted about Ogrethulhu being in backlog :(
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:40 AM   #64
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
Even if GEV-PCs were too hard due to INF carrying/stacking, LGEVs would be a huge win. Would you guys consider adding them sooner rather than later, even if it's not right away?
Once we get more resources for the game - we will of course talk to people here about what they'd like to see in the game. Agree they would be a win. Ogre has a way to get into profit, but it will get there. We have discussions with SJGames about other means that could be used, however they all still need inputs of investment that are hard to commit to now. We're all still busy promoting the game - that's our focus now - more Ogre fans.

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
In any event, I appreciate the update and the transparency - honesty even when it's not what I want to hear is always preferred over telling me lies to make me happy in the short run.
Much appreciate your input and candor too!
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:33 AM   #65
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

Quote:
Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
Not complex in rules terms, but art time. (mainly Light GEV, GEV-PC, Fencer,Doppelsoldner & Trucks) However I felt these were the least 'iconic' of the games units so when we had to make hard choices on art, I moved these into the backlog.

Theen more complex units (mainly Cruise Missiles, Vulcan & Combat Engineers, Ogrethulhu) all needed more rules (so code) as well as art time and also were newer, so less iconic part of the game. So again, when push came to shove they got moved into backlog. With these the scenarios connected to them also got moved into backlog.
That all sounds reasonable. "Level of iconicness" is an interesting approach to unit selection.

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I'm still gutted about Ogrethulhu being in backlog :(
Somehow, I'm not surprised at your disappointment. Not sure why I think that. ;-)
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:03 PM   #66
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

Thanks for the further info. I would suggest that as far as units go, LGEVs, GEV-PCs, Trucks and Hovertrucks (in approximately that order) would be the top priorities. Fencers and Dopps, while nice, can be strategically approximated by Mk IV and Mk VI Ogres (though tactically they are very different), making them less critical to scenario design albeit still important. I totally get the difficulties in modeling things like Cruise Missiles (and Lasers!), Vulcans, etc., and agree they fall significantly lower on the "must have" list. Hopefully things will fall into place such that you can surprise us with at least a couple new units at some point. :)
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:14 PM   #67
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
The purpose of the game on Steam was the ability to play a game on Steam -- not to use it as a development engine for the board game. The Scenario Creator was a nice touch, but clearly not absolutely necessary to play the game itself.
AUROCH says otherwise:

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
When we started the project we had huge ambitions to get absolutely everything Ogre in the game, and more. We had set points throughout the development where we’d assess the current work list, how much of the resources and budget were left, and define what we should focus on and what we should drop into the backlog. We kept the core plan - the base original Ogre game, GEV rules, multiplayer, a new campaign and Steam Workshop.
The Scenario Creator is part of the core plan(.)...as it should be. I would argue it IS the core.

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Sorry to hear that Tim - we did update to fix that bug. If you're still having issues with it, get us the log and we'll take another look. Thanks.
After posting my previous post, I went to STEAM and found a post from AD stating it had been fixed...fired up the game and tested it and it works flawlessly now. It had plagued me since the games launch. Thank You for this fix! Very much appreciated. :)

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
From our viewpoint, Ogre is largely free of major bugs. We define major bugs as Class A and Class B bugs. Class As are crash bugs: hangs and issues that stop a game progressing. Class Bs are major issues that don’t stop a game from being played and / or have a workaround.

We say “largely”, as with any complex system, there will be ones we don’t yet know of, or ones that we think we’ve done but under a new set of conditions may reappear. We are aware there are Class C and D bugs in the game (as in most games), which are minor visual / UI issues that are noticeable sometimes (a Class C) and really minor visual issues that most players won’t spot (a Class D).
Is the map lines issue I reported considered less than "major"? If you have people exporting maps using the wonderful new map exporter feature, I would hope it is considered important enough to fix.

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
There are also of course improvements and additions that we would like to make; new content that either enhances the existing game or brings new content that is not within the current scope of the project.
What specifically are these "improvements and additions that we would like to make; new content that either enhances the existing game or brings new content"?

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
When we started the project we had huge ambitions to get absolutely everything Ogre in the game, and more. We had set points throughout the development where we’d assess the current work list, how much of the resources and budget were left, and define what we should focus on and what we should drop into the backlog. We kept the core plan - the base original Ogre game, GEV rules, multiplayer, a new campaign and Steam Workshop.
It has been mentioned Cruise Missiles and Lasers can't be included that it would require a different engine...that speaks to the limitations of the engine the current game is using. Which becomes another topic.

Even if you had sufficient funding to do everything we all could hope and access to a engine, ect that would allow it's creation, does that not mean this current game would at some point have to be abandoned because of it's limits and a different, newer version would have to be made? For example, the current game can't have lasers in it, but the new version could.

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
What this means is that Steve Jackson Games and Auroch Digital have yet to recoup our original investment in the title. I believe the game will make its money back and get into profit eventually, but not right now. Because of this, spending additional development money is something both Steve Jackson Games and we have agreed that we just can’t afford to do right now.
Any projections you can speculate on as to when the game may turn green and more funding and development begins? Nobody will hold you to anything, it would just be better than absolutely having no clue whatsoever out here in the wild.

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
We’re also going to continue our ongoing support, i.e. answering questions, investigating problems, and promoting the game to bring new people into the world of Ogre. If major issues appear, we will of course fix them.
Much appreciated. :)

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
Once we get more resources for the game - we will of course talk to people here about what they'd like to see in the game. Ogre has a way to get into profit, but it will get there. We have discussions with SJGames about other means that could be used, however they all still need inputs of investment that are hard to commit to now.
So, there is hope???

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
We're all still busy promoting the game -
In what ways is the STEAM game currently being "promoted"?

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
that's our focus now - more Ogre fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
Ogre has a way to get into profit, but it will get there. We have discussions with SJGames about other means that could be used, however they all still need inputs of investment that are hard to commit to now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
however they all still need inputs of investment that are hard to commit to now.
"inputs of investment" is the only thing that will attract more OGRE fans. This entire game is unfinished, literally. It's in some weird transitory limbo between not being enough of what it actually is (missing basic units/ ect), while also being more of what it could be (Scenario Creator/ Campaign games/ Online Play) and yet not enough of that either. It's like some awesome hot rod that was stopped being worked on and is missing parts but still drivable not firing on all piston because funding was cut so it's missing a piston among other things.

Just please finish this awesome game you started...don't let it become another "could have been a much better game" because that does the opposite of attracting new fans. Acquire the resources to finish what was started and only then will you have any right to expect new fans. OGRE deserves better than the current state of affairs with this game and we all know it. Whatever has been lacking pre and post launch needs to be remedied without mercy and only then will the game have the chance it deserves. So, put those tread units on the OGRE!
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:32 PM   #68
ianargent
 
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
That's an amazing statement I'm going to steal (if that's ok?) for a presentation on 'the steampocalypse'...
Take it with my blessing
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:58 AM   #69
AurochDigital
 
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
What I'd really like to understand is what Class of issues are still known about that need to be addressed that active plans to fix are in place? I've been slowly going through my personal backlog of what I've reported to see what's still outstanding, but it would be nice to know what I should be spending my time on instead of trying to hit everything (it's not a small list).
Right so summarizing a lot of test and issues for brevity we've got the main areas of:
  • Ramps in/out of water - Technically a but allowing Scenario Editor to place swap next to beach, but we decided to leave this in so people can play with it.
  • Tile Edges - When we made the call to not put in cruise missiles, this included not adding destroyed hexes, as this was one of the major areas that added a lot of extra development and we'd have had to cut other features. So we had to compromise on structurally how we handles hexes, road and rail. What this meant is that some of the detailed rules on tile edges could be be added either leaving some of these areas not in even though they don't explicitly relate to cruise missiles.
  • Large/Small Bridges - As above this relates same pragmatism so we added these into backlog. Again this means rules not explicitly related to those areas are currently no in scope.
  • Splitting INF during Overun attacks - We did allow this at first, but the UI stacking was messy and created a bunch of issues, so we took the call that we'd just not put this in for now as per full rules.

If there are things not part of those you think we should have done, let me know and I'll look into it.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:41 AM   #70
AurochDigital
 
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Default Re: Survey: Top Priorities for Ogre VG Improvement

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Is the map lines issue I reported considered less than "major"? If you have people exporting maps using the wonderful new map exporter feature, I would hope it is considered important enough to fix.
We're using the 3D models as they are here. So what you're seeing in the export is what is in the game (though the other game lighting/rendering code impacts on it's look). We'd need to write a system to trace a line over the existing hex lines.

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
What specifically are these "improvements and additions that we would like to make; new content that either enhances the existing game or brings new content"?
Given the resources we'd like to add everything that is/has been officially published for Ogre and a bunch of new idea. Sadly we don't have those resources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
It has been mentioned Cruise Missiles and Lasers can't be included that it would require a different engine...that speaks to the limitations of the engine the current game is using. Which becomes another topic.

Even if you had sufficient funding to do everything we all could hope and access to a engine, ect that would allow it's creation, does that not mean this current game would at some point have to be abandoned because of it's limits and a different, newer version would have to be made? For example, the current game can't have lasers in it, but the new version could.
It's not a limitation on the engine, sorry if I gave that impression. The current engine could be made to do everything. Sure some areas of code would need updating etc. But the core framework can do it. All this can be done - with more time and money. That's sadly our limit.

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Any projections you can speculate on as to when the game may turn green and more funding and development begins? Nobody will hold you to anything, it would just be better than absolutely having no clue whatsoever out here in the wild.
It's going to take a while. I can't really give exact answers, but it's a while hence taking the time to make the statement.

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
In what ways is the STEAM game currently being "promoted"?
We take part in Steam sales, there's been promotions with other re-sellers like Humble. We've done the competitions. We took part in the Steam board-game sale/promo recently. We're planning to do more streaming. But other things in the background. Steam remains a hard marketplace though. There is no easy route to exposure on Steam.

Thanks for taking time to get me your thoughts :)
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