Advanced Combat Skills

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by JLV

One suggestion would be to not stack the UC talents. UC II does more Damage than UC I does, but it isn't additive to UC I's damage. Thus, each level of UC would effectively "replace" the previous level's damage with the new level of damage inflicted.

In effect, maybe damage only increases by a point or two with each level of expertise. Likewise, defense bonuses and DX penalties/advantages would only adjust by a single point per level of UC. ...

You might want to look at my suggested versions of Steve's talents. They do exactly that.

Rick

[tbeard1999]

A normal TFT character will have a maximum of 16 additional attribute points (he starts with 8 and it will be a LONG time before he gets to #14-16). Imposing an IQ prerequisite of 12 for a combat talent makes a player use 25% of those extra points on an attribute that’s otherwise worthless for combat. So the talent NEEDS to be potent to offset that high cost.

But in my opinion, higher powered talents are much harder to calibrate and balance.

(Imposing a DX requirement isn’t as bad, but it limits the variation possible in characters that have that talent.)

So if it were me, I think I’d go with lesser prerequisites and less power. I’ve often mused about the simplest kind of weapon talent - “Each extra talent point you spend on Sword talent gives you +1 damage or makes you -1 to hit when using that weapon (you have to pick one or the other). Limited to a maximum of 4 extra talent points.”

[Steve Jackson]

UC talents are not supposed to stack! Is everybody analyzing them on that basis?

[Steve Jackson]

Okay, here's another wall of text. Clarified, expanded, nerfed.

COMBAT SKILLS

Brawling = IQ 7
UC 1 = IQ 9.
UC 2 = IQ 11.
UC 3 = IQ 12
UC 4 = IQ 13
UC 5 = IQ 14.

Brawling (1) (IQ 7) Experience with unscientific bar fighting, friendly or otherwise. If you also have Carousing skill, you can roll 2/IQ to keep a brawl friendly, unless you then do something evil.
• Improvised Weapons. You may “ready” a bottle into an (unthrowable) dagger, throw a mug as though it was a rock (1d-4 damage), or find a club in any piece of broken furniture.
• Punch. You do one extra hit of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Dirty Fighting. You may choose to do two extra hits of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat, but then the brawl is not “friendly.” Foes will fight back dirty or grab weapons if they can.

Unarmed Combat (1). Basic martial arts, similar to judo, karate, la savate, etc. A figure with this skill can:
• Punch. Does +1 damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat. Regular bare-hands damage is 1d-4, so you do 1d-3.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -4, but do +2 damage compared to your bare-hands attack. So you kick at 1d-1.
To use this skill – or any of the higher-level Unarmed Combat skills – a figure must be unarmored, or wearing cloth armor only, and have both hands free. No “unskilled” use of unarmored combat talents is allowed. A martial artist should not expect to best a prepared, armed and armored foe, but is far more prepared for an impromptu, unarmed battle.
Note: This and the below UC talents do not “stack” – the effect of UC II replaces the effect of UC I, and so on.

Unarmed Combat II (1). As U.C. I, except:
• Punch. Does +2 damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -2, but do +3 damage compared to a bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but if your target falls, you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. Hand weapon attacks from your front hexes are at -1, and damage done to you is reduced by 1 hit per attack.
Prerequisites: U.C. I and a DX of 11 or more.

Unarmed Combat III (2). As U.C. II, except:
• Punch. Does +3 extra damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -1 and do one extra die of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but the opponent’s roll to defend is on 4 dice. If your target falls, they take 1 hit (armor does not protect) and you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. Attacks from your front hexes are at -2, and damage done to you is reduced by 2 hits per attack.
Prerequisites: U.C. II, DX 12 or more.

Unarmed Combat IV (3). As U.C. III, except:
• Punch. Does 1d extra damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at your adjDX and do one extra die of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but the opponent’s roll to defend is on 4 dice. If your target falls, they take 2 hits (armor does not protect) and you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. You have a natural “eyes-behind” (like the spell) at all times. Your side hexes count as front hexes, and your rear hex counts as a side hex. Hand weapon attacks from all your front hexes are at -2, and damage done to you is reduced by 2 hits per attack. If you take the Defend option, your attacker must roll an extra die to hit you.
Prerequisite: U.C. III, DX 13 or more.

Unarmed Combat V (4, not a typo). Mastery of martial arts. As U.C. IV, except:
• Punch. Does 1d+1 extra damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat. Or can make two rapid blows against the same or different foes, at no DX penalty, with one extra die of damage each.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at your adjDX and do one extra die of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but the opponent’s roll to defend is on 4 dice. If your target falls, they take 2 hits (armor does not protect) and you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. All your hexes count as front hexes. Hand weapon attacks from adjacent hexes are at -2, and damage done to you is reduced by 3 hits per attack. If you take the Defend option, your attacker must roll two extra dice to hit you.
• Nerve blows. Declare that you are punching to disarm, and roll at -4 DX. If your target takes more than 3 points of damage, he is hit on a nerve and automatically drops his weapon.
Prerequisites: U.C. IV, DX 14 or more.

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Weapon Expertise (3) - found at IQ 10
Expertise is a separate talent for each Weapon talent. For instance, an Expert Swordsman gets no bonus with axes or maces. Expertise applies only to hand weapons, but see the Missile Weapons skill.
Expertise with the dagger is a separate Expertise talent from expertise with the sword. Expertise with the sword also does not include fencing weapons, which have their own Expertise (see below).
• Bonus to hit. An Expert does +1 damage with weapons of the type, including thrown attacks if the weapon is throwable.
• Bonus to defend. All melee attacks against an Expert who has weapon in hand are at -1 DX. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll an extra die when attacking.
• Shrewd blow. An Expert may attack at -5 DX and do an extra die of damage.
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon talent, DX 12 or more

Weapon Mastery (3): - found at IQ 13
Mastery is a separate talent for each Weapon talent. For instance, a Master Swordsman gets no bonus with axes or maces. Mastery with the dagger is also separate from mastery with the sword. Bonuses from Mastery do not stack with those from Expertise!
• Bonus to hit. A Master does +2 damage with weapons of the type, including thrown attacks if the weapon is throwable.
• Bonus to defend. All melee attacks against a Master who has weapon in hand are at -2 DX. If a Master chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll two extra dice when attacking.
• Disarming. Against a weapon of the same type, or any weapon requiring the same or less ST as his own, a Master may strike to disarm. Announce that the attack is to disarm, and make the regular to-hit roll. On a success, the foe must roll 3/DX (2/DX for Experts, automatic for Masters) to retain his weapon; otherwise, it is dropped.
• Shrewd blow. A Master may attack at -4 DX and do an extra 1d+2 of damage.
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon expertise, DX 14 or more

Found at IQ 10
Fencer (3): Equivalent of Weapon Expertise, specifically for the fencing weapons: rapier, saber (treat as cutlass), and main-gauche. Your basic DX must be at least 13, and your armor may not reduce your adjDX below 13 when you use the ability.
• Bonus to hit. An Expert Fencer does +1 damage with any fencing weapon, including main-gauche (but not main-gauche in HTH combat).
• Bonus to defend. All melee attacks against an Expert who has weapon(s) in hand are at -1 DX. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll an extra die when attacking.
• Two weapons. The Expert has the Two Weapons talent, as defined below, for fencing weapons only.
• Shrewd thrust. An Expert may attack at -4 DX and do an extra die of damage.
Prerequisite: Sword talent, DX 12 or more

found at IQ 13
Master Fencer (3): Equivalent of Weapon Mastery, specifically for the fencing weapons: rapier, saber (treat as cutlass), main-gauche. Your basic DX must be at least 14, and your armor may not reduce your adjDX below 14 when you use the ability.
Bonuses from Mastery do not stack with those from Expertise!
• Bonus to hit. A Master does +2 damage on each attack with rapier, saber, or main-gauche (but not main-gauche in HTH combat).
• Bonus to defend. All melee attacks against a Master who has weapon in hand are at -3 DX. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll two extra dice when attacking.
• Disarming. Against a weapon of the same type, or any weapon requiring the same or less ST as his own, a Master may strike to disarm. Announce that the attack is to disarm, and make the regular to-hit roll. On a success, the foe must roll 3/DX (2/DX for Expert foes, automatic for Masters) to retain his weapon; otherwise, it is dropped.
• Two weapons. The Master has the Two Weapons talent, as defined below, for fencing weapons only.
• Shrewd thrust. A Master may attack at -3 DX and do an extra 1d+2 of damage.
Prerequisite: Expert Fencer, DX 14 or more


Missile Weapons (1): A high degree of skill with whatever missile weapons the figure has the talent for, attained by constant practice. May also be used with missile spells which the figure knows. This talent gives the user a +1 DX on all missile weapons (and spells!) that he knows. This DX counts toward speed of fire for bows, as well as accuracy. Missile Weapons talent can be chosen two or even three times, for a +2 or +3 bonus.
(I can argue that it might be allowable up to 5 times, if you like Robin Hood or Agincourt.)


Shield Expertise (2): A high degree of trained ability with the shield. Any attack against your front hexes is at an extra -1 DX, and you stop an extra hit of damage with your shield.
If you make a shield rush attack, the foe is at a -2 penalty on his/her ability to stay afoot.

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Character notes

Unarmed Combat: A starting character can currently have UC III if he accepts ST 8.
That character can graduate to UC IV with two added attribute points, and to UC V with four.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

UC talents are not supposed to stack! Is everybody analyzing them on that basis?

Hopefully no one was thinking that... that would mean UC V would do like 6 dice damage rather than "merely" 4 dice, give -9 to be hit, stop 10 hits per attack...

[Skarg]

Brawling:
* Can't anyone throw a mug like a rock? (Well, maybe I have the Brawling talent.)
Hmm... I think actually while anyone could, most people don't think to do that, and don't notice such things. Brawlers (and tactical roleplayers) tend to notice opportunities to use what's there as weapons of opportunity.

* The intention is Brawling has no DX/armor requirements, yes? (Good/yay!)

* Giving an IQ 7 (1) talent that gives +2 unarmed damage starts to make having a dagger for +3 seem like not enough of a difference compared to not having a dagger. It's a problem with the low grain and the lack of different damage types. Could be adjusted by letting Brawling or some other talent also up the dagger damage more, but then of course we're making everything more lethal...

UC I:

*

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Regular bare-hands damage is 1d-4, so you do 1d-3.

Wait, what? Did the Advanced Melee unarmed damage by ST get set to a flat 1d-4 someplace? That's vital to know before evaluating the UC talents.

UC IV & V:

* Why would anyone ever choose to do a single punch against someone one hex away, when they could kick them +1 die damage and no disadvantage to doing so?

[RobW]

OK, another simulation with the revisions above: 40 pts characters, Basic, Expert, Master, and UCV with the above rules (although the only special attack implemented is Shrewd Blow).
Bas40 = ST13 DX19 IQ8, chain + s shield + shield expertise
Exp40 = ST13 DX17 IQ10, cloth + s shield + shield expertise
Mas40 = ST12 DX15 IQ13, cloth + s shield + shield expertise
UCV40 = ST11 DX15 IQ14, no armor

As you can see, the results are much more even now, no dominant strategy. Rows show the win rates for the different fighters, columns the loss rates. I have to say I like that UCV now loses to a figure in chainmail (although maybe if nerve blows and throws were in here that would change, ulp!).


...... Bas40 Exp40 Mas40 UCV40
Bas.40 ----- 0.459 0.517 0.629
Exp.40 0.541 ----- 0.301 0.326
Mas.40 0.447 0.700 ----- 0.286
UCV.40 0.384 0.672 0.704 -----


I admit that the non-linearities here surprise me, so hopefully this confirms your playtesting.

However, my take from the simulation is that Weapon Mastery is a good path for a high IQ fighter, but not necessarily the only good path for a fighter.

[zot]

Do Brawling and UC stack?

[larsdangly]

I think you are there (or just about there, if clarifications are needed for the questions above). These are powerful enough to matter but will not start to take over until characters are pretty advanced. Some play testing and gonkulations are likely required, but I suspect whatever you end up publishing will be within a point or so of these, one way or the other.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by RobW

OK, another simulation with the revisions above: 40 pts characters, Basic, Expert, Master, and UCV with the above rules (although the only special attack implemented is Shrewd Blow).
Bas40 = ST13 DX19 IQ8, chain + s shield + shield expertise
Exp40 = ST13 DX17 IQ10, cloth + s shield + shield expertise
Mas40 = ST12 DX15 IQ13, cloth + s shield + shield expertise
UCV40 = ST11 DX15 IQ14, no armor

As you can see, the results are much more even now, no dominant strategy. Rows show the win rates for the different fighters, columns the loss rates. I have to say I like that UCV now loses to a figure in chainmail (although maybe if nerve blows and throws were in here that would change, ulp!).

Weapon Expertise/Mastery does not preclude wearing armor, though with 40-point cap and the shrewd penalties, it makes it unclear what's the best combination, especially with the IQ 13 Master requirement. Also I think the use of Warrior/Veteran/Hardened and fine equipment could slide things around. Did you assume that people would always use shrewd attacks? I'd be curious about stats for several other designs / tactics, such as:

Exp40 using all shrewd (except when suffering a -2 injury penalty).

Exp40 never using shrewd.

Mas40 using all shrewd (except when suffering a -2 injury penalty).

Mas40 never using shrewd.

ST 13 DX 17 IQ 10, no armor, sword expert, s shield + shield expert - always using shrewd attacks

ST 11 DX 19 IQ 10, no armor, sword expert, s shield + shield expert - always using shrewd attacks

ST 11 DX 16 IQ 13, no armor, sword master, s shield + shield expert - always using shrewd attacks

ST 13 DX 17 IQ 10, no armor, halberd expert, always shrewd

ST 11 DX 19 IQ 10, no armor, spear expert, always shrewd

ST 11 DX 16 IQ 13, no armor, spear expert, always shrewd

ST 15, DX 15, IQ 10, chainmail, Veteran, battleaxe expert, never shrewd

ST 15, DX 15, IQ 10, chainmail, Veteran, pole axe expert, never shrewd

ST 14, DX 16, IQ 10, fine plate, Veteran, sword expert, never shrewd

UC characters

Tests where people have access to Fine Chainmail 4 -2DX, the Hardened talents, fine weapons, some others of the above in fine plate or leather, etc.