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Old 12-06-2017, 03:37 PM   #11
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I really wish that piecemeal Deflect wasn't something that they kept in this game.
I really wish that deflect wasn't something that they kept in the game. Absent deflect, if we look at two fighters with equal skill with a parry bonus (DB, combat reflexes, enhanced active defenses, retreat) are best off attacking as follows:
  • PB +0: Deceptive attack down to skill 12, resulting in defense 9, hit chance 47%.
  • PB +1: Deceptive attack down to skill 12, resulting in defense 10, hit chance 38%.
  • PB +2: Deceptive attack down to skill 12, resulting in defense 11, hit chance 29%.
  • PB +3: Deceptive attack down to skill 12, resulting in defense 12, hit chance 21%.
  • PB +4: Deceptive attack down to skill 10, resulting in defense 12, hit chance 14% (going down to 12 is almost as good; 13.6% vs 14.3%).
  • PB +5 or more: forget about deceptive attack. Make as many attacks as possible at modified skill 16 or better, fishing for crits.
Two fighters with medium shields (or fencing weapons) and combat reflexes, using retreats and stepping forward on their turns, are already sitting close to the degenerate case (PB+4), adding deflect pushes it over the edge.
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:00 PM   #12
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I really wish that deflect wasn't something that they kept in the game. Absent deflect, if we look at two fighters with equal skill with a parry bonus (DB, combat reflexes, enhanced active defenses, retreat) are best off attacking as follows:
  • PB +0: Deceptive attack down to skill 12, resulting in defense 9, hit chance 47%.
  • PB +1: Deceptive attack down to skill 12, resulting in defense 10, hit chance 38%.
  • PB +2: Deceptive attack down to skill 12, resulting in defense 11, hit chance 29%.
  • PB +3: Deceptive attack down to skill 12, resulting in defense 12, hit chance 21%.
  • PB +4: Deceptive attack down to skill 10, resulting in defense 12, hit chance 14% (going down to 12 is almost as good; 13.6% vs 14.3%).
  • PB +5 or more: forget about deceptive attack. Make as many attacks as possible at modified skill 16 or better, fishing for crits.
Two fighters with medium shields (or fencing weapons) and combat reflexes, using retreats and stepping forward on their turns, are already sitting close to the degenerate case (PB+4), adding deflect pushes it over the edge.
Parry is vulnerable to saturation attacks, unlike Dodge, so rapid strikes and multiple attackers can make deceptive attack useful against high Parry.

My proposal wouldn't contribute as much to the problem, because at best you could add +2 to an existing shield's.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 12-06-2017 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:02 PM   #13
Colarmel
 
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Parry is vulnerable to saturation attacks, unlike Dodge, so rapid strikes and multiple attackers can make deceptive attack useful against high Parry.

My proposal wouldn't contribute this problem though, since it would give a DB in lieu of a shield's bonus and DB doesn't stack.
Magical DB doesn't stack. But armor db+5 and a regular small shield results in DB 6
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:05 PM   #14
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

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Originally Posted by Colarmel View Post
Magical DB doesn't stack. But armor db+5 and a regular small shield results in DB 6
If you don't have Deflect on armor where are you getting armor DB from? Where would you get DB 5 armor from at all? Deflect only goes to +2 in Dungeon Fantasy (and gothic fluted plate isn't an option either).
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:15 PM   #15
Colarmel
 
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
If you don't have Deflect on armor where are you getting armor DB from? Where would you get DB 5 armor from at all? Deflect only goes to +2 in Dungeon Fantasy (and gothic fluted plate isn't an option either).
It goes higher than that. Just not listed in adventurers. See Exploits p. 79. Regardless of where you're getting the magical DB whether from armor or a magic DB ring, it should remain true that it doesn't replace, but supplements mundane shield DB.

Edit: although in light of your edit that second part is irrelevant.

Last edited by Colarmel; 12-06-2017 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Edit
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:37 PM   #16
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

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Originally Posted by Colarmel View Post
It goes higher than that. Just not listed in adventurers. See Exploits p. 79. Regardless of where you're getting the magical DB whether from armor or a magic DB ring, it should remain true that it doesn't replace, but supplements mundane shield DB.

Edit: although in light of your edit that second part is irrelevant.
Yeah I realized that I wasn't clear.

At any we have armor DB, so this is all kind of moot, except as house rules.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: Deflect on a Shield

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
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Originally Posted by JMason View Post
Defending Shield grants a bonus to Block, Deflect gives a bonus to DB. While these have the same effect when blocking, they are not the same thing and thus can stack.
Correct. Defense Bonus has nothing to do with Block. It's a bonus to all active defenses, including any weird new ones the GM opts to make up. Block bonuses are effectively increases to Shield skill for defense only.
Ah! There we go! Got it.

Thanks!
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