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Old 11-05-2017, 03:30 PM   #11
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Ham Fisted tanks Fast Draw. Given the very precious action economy of GURPS people want to avoid tanking fast draw
Only if you have a weapon that can be fast-drawn in the first place; axes, flails, etc don't get that privelage.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:35 PM   #12
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

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Only if you have a weapon that can be fast-drawn in the first place; axes, flails, etc don't get that privelage.
Yeah, they get the privilege of already being drawn... which is the fastest of all draws. ;)
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Old 11-06-2017, 04:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

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Yeah, they get the privilege of already being drawn... which is the fastest of all draws. ;)
Fast draws seem to be a thing that some gamers are much more concerned with than most real fighters were and are (iajitsu being the notable exception). Maybe it is just me but I see combat oriented GURPS characters who expect trouble to have ready weapons in hand in my games, just like in real life. Fast-Draw comes up when fights break out unexpectedly, but that is a minority of combat, IME.
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Old 11-06-2017, 04:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

I always get really frustrated with these disadvantages every time I have to work with them.

Some of it is because they give back so few points for how much they seriously mess with the character. Some of it is because I keep wanting an opposite of fine manual DX that applies to creatures with a very firm but awkward grip.
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Old 11-06-2017, 04:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

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Some of it is because they give back so few points for how much they seriously mess with the character.
Presumably most characters that take Ham-Fisted likely aren't hampered much by it, and nobody expects creatures with Bad Grip to use their manipulators much anyway.
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Some of it is because I keep wanting an opposite of fine manual DX that applies to creatures with a very firm but awkward grip.
So Ham-Fisted doesn't work because it isn't incremental?
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:42 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

Ham-Fisted is incremental, it's just in units of -3 instead of -1. It's asymmetrical to High Manual Dexterity because (like many disadvantages) it's priced assuming the people that take it don't expect to be hindered by it.

My experience of Ham-Fisted is that the reaction penalty is a regular problem, and the actual DX penalties are negligable - because I'm not taking it on characters that will ever attempt Sleight of Hand or Pickpocket or Lockpicking or Surgery.

Acquiring Ham-Fisted after-the-fact unwillingly is a different prospect, and that's where Ham-Fisted from equipment potentially becomes a more significant disad... except you get to pick your equipment and you can take it off.
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:26 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

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My experience of Ham-Fisted is that the reaction penalty is a regular problem, and the actual DX penalties are negligable - because I'm not taking it on characters that will ever attempt Sleight of Hand or Pickpocket or Lockpicking or Surgery.
Are you kidding? Hammerfoust the Hamfisted Barbarian does all those things!

Sleight of Hand? Hammerfoust makes coins disappear like magic! (Right into the tavernkeeper's pocket...)

Pickpocket? Hammerfoust hits the victim in the head until they aren't capable of noticing him riffling their pockets.

Lockpicking? Seriously? Of course Hammerfoust can pick(axe) a lock.

Surgery? Ahhh.... well... hmmm. Okay. You got me there. Only the terminally ill and suffering would want Hammerfoust as their surgeon...
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:40 AM   #18
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Presumably most characters that take Ham-Fisted likely aren't hampered much by it, and nobody expects creatures with Bad Grip to use their manipulators much anyway.

So Ham-Fisted doesn't work because it isn't incremental?
I'm trying to think where that ran into problems for me. I know it did, but I can't remember the specifics. Sorry.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bad Grip and Ham-Fisted

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I looked at both disadvantages when thinking about species design, and particularly design of nonhuman primates. But it seemed to me that Bad Grip was lethal for arboreal species. I can see occasion for Ham-Fisted, but making Bad Grip viable is harder.
GURPS Horror has "Not Climbing" as a -10% Accessibility on Bad Grip for the gorilla-like ngojama demon, but this seems like more of a stopgap measure than an argument against just using Ham-Fisted.
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