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Old 09-25-2017, 12:52 PM   #51
Rupert
 
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I've often seen people say things like 100 points + 25 points/level, which gives 125 points at level 1, 250 points at level 6, and 375 points at level 11.
The maths works out pretty well for that in D&D3.x, assuming a not very generous stat generation method. More generous methods mean a higher base, and different descendants of 3.x have different advancement rates, but it's a decent baseline.
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Serious demons, devils, etc. in AD&D were aimed toward level 9+ characters. Actual princes and lords were barely fair for level 14+ heroes. Thus, we're talking about monsters that would show up once people reach the 325- to 450-point range in the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. In other words, stuff that mostly happens outside the top end of what the box covers.
Type V devils used to (in AD&D1) carve up quite high level parties. Type V demons used to carve up slightly lower level parties and their entire army of followers, hirelings, and minions. It was, I always thought, an interesting distinction between demons (army killers) and devils (hero killers) in AD&D1.
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:58 PM   #52
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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And also in Infernum, Book of the Damned (where, IIRC, demons were natives to Hell, and devils were fallen angels), so it's not unique to ADD.
Also, the Palladium setting of Palladium games, where Demons and Devils are both evil and nasty, live on different planes/dimensions, and want to wipe each other out because they each see the other as in the way of multiversal domination. I think this may actually pre-date an explict demon-devil war in D&D's cosmology. In the Palladium setting the origins of each group are similar - they're natives of their respective planes.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:58 AM   #53
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Also, the Palladium setting of Palladium games, where Demons and Devils are both evil and nasty, live on different planes/dimensions, and want to wipe each other out
I didn't know this, so thanks for sharing it. Also can be interesting to check if 1977 Monster Manual of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons was the first in distinguishing between demons and devils (at pages 16 and 20, respectively).

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  • You have entities that desire corruption, tempting mortals into sin. This does not work well in DF, as it tends to amount to "if you act like an DF character, I get to punish you".
If you ask me, this works just fine: Dungeon Fantasy characters can be tempted against their Codes of Honor, Senses of Duty, Vows, Higher Purposes, Disciplines of Faith . . . And acting against any of these traits can be sinful.

On the other hand, adventuring and killing monsters for loot isn't necessarily sinful nor motivated by profane greed. Ask Holy Warriors about it! And it matches with the post tenebras lux maxim (after darkness, light), one of its meanings being to bring out to light treasures or potentialities hidden by darkness or constricted by monsters, as it can be seen in mythical, cosmogonic wars and exploits of gods or angels against demons for wealth and also in the mining symbolism, very related to delving into dungeons as well.
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:17 AM   #54
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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If you ask me, this works just fine: Dungeon Fantasy characters can be tempted against their Codes of Honor, Senses of Duty, Vows, Higher Purposes, Disciplines of Faith . . . And acting against any of these traits can be sinful.

On the other hand, adventuring and killing monsters for loot isn't necessarily sinful nor motivated by profane greed
While some kind of Code of Honor or Sense of Duty that amounts to "I will not PVP" is pretty common in games around here, we get Vows more like "I will only use my fathers sword" or "I will challenge every swordsman we meet to a duel", rather than really virtue based ones.

Actual Greed tends to be endemic, along with Bloodlust, Intolerance, and/or Callous.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:42 AM   #55
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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While some kind of Code of Honor or Sense of Duty that amounts to "I will not PVP" is pretty common in games around here, we get Vows more like "I will only use my fathers sword" or "I will challenge every swordsman we meet to a duel", rather than really virtue based ones.
There are many variations of the mentioned traits. And even failing to challenge swordsmen can be a sin related to cowardice, which is the contrary of a virtue. To discard the sword of the father would be a broken promise, a loss of honor also related to sin, while attacking your adventuring companions doesn't need explanation.

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Actual Greed tends to be endemic, along with Bloodlust, Intolerance, and/or Callous.
Yes, these are character traits as well, the same way there are some genuinely evil monstrous races available for players. Now, the Intolerance disadvantage can be "good" or "bad" depending on context: for instance, if it's against evil religions there's nothing to be ashamed of, and the character could be tempted against the trait.

In any case, a variety of options don't define the game, and very much of that greed is just a perception, which is there also in absence of the awareness of the cosmogonic meaning I pointed above —getting treasure from darkness, even by means of violence or theft, is analogue of the primordial Fiat Lux—, a meaning which on the other hand doesn't need to match with obvious or familiar forms of morality —and here's where even some "purely negative" traits could be redeemed. But I don't think it's needed to pursue the subject more deeply, so it's not my intention to do it.
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:25 PM   #56
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
While some kind of Code of Honor or Sense of Duty that amounts to "I will not PVP" is pretty common in games around here, we get Vows more like "I will only use my fathers sword" or "I will challenge every swordsman we meet to a duel", rather than really virtue based ones.

Actual Greed tends to be endemic, along with Bloodlust, Intolerance, and/or Callous.
I had trouble with one AD&D character in a group, because I wasn't interested in money except to attain a very specific goal. As a part water elemental, I wanted to get rich enough to buy a safe empty quarry to fill with water creating a mini-kingdom lake for all watery hybrids to live in peace.
The DM being a bit Monty Haul just rewarded everyone with so much money that my character had to leave. He was confused. I'm not extreme in roleplaying, but that was my character's entire motivation for adventuring.
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:52 AM   #57
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

Honestly, I like the simplification of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy online having only one major group of "Fiends" in the form of Demons. But that doesn't mean you can't have different "subgroups" of Demons with different unifying traits. One old third party 3E D&D supplement, "Demonology", offered a unique mechanic for summoning Fiends, wrapping up all the Fiend types under the name "Demon", and then splitting them up into different "Families" based on the names used in 2nd Edition: Tanar'i, Baatezu, Yugoloths, etc.

So I suppose if you want to have your cake and eat it too, just say that all Evil Celestial Beings are called "Demons", but that the term "Demons" encompasses a large number of different groups, with different personality types, powers, motivations and weaknesses. And that adds a layer of difficulty that makes Demon-summoning all the more dangerous; many an Apprentice Summoner has died at the hands of a Malebranche he summoned, only learning too late that a circle for binding an Incubus won't work on them.
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Old 10-03-2017, 01:08 PM   #58
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

Demon is pretty much like the modern usage of Alien (ET variety). Very generic fitting for anything not us and not from around here.

I think the Myth Inc. series of books had Demon just mean interdimensional foreigner, so we'd be demons if we went to another parallel reality.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:14 PM   #59
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

As for the distinction of Devils versus Demons in Dungeons & Dragon the first mention of the idea occurred in the 6th issues of the Strategic Review in Feb 1976. The article was "The meaning of Law and Chaos in Dungeons & Dragons and their relationships to Good and Evil."

There was a chart and in the lower left (Lawful Evil) corner was marked Devils. And that is pretty much it until the release of the AD&D Monster Manual. They are not even listed on succeeding figure in the same article which places then current D&D monsters on the alignment graph.

Here is what Gygax said on the topic.

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Many questions continue to arise regarding what constitutes a “lawful” act, what sort of behavior is “chaotic”, what constituted an “evil” deed, and how certain behavior is “good”. There is considerable confusion in that most dungeonmasters construe the terms “chaotic” and “evil” to mean the same thing, just as they define “lawful” and “good” to mean the same.

This is scarcely surprising considering the wording of the three original volumes of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. When that was written they meant just about the same thing in my mind — notice I do not say they were synonymous in my thinking at, that time.* The wording in the GREYHAWK supplement added a bit more confusion, for by the time that booklet was written some substantial differences had been determined.

In fact, had I the opportunity to do D&D over I would have made the whole
business very much clearer by differentiating the four categories, and many
chaotic creatures would be good, while many lawful creatures would be evil.
*If you read Playing at the World, Hawk and Moor and other accounts of gaming in the Upper Midwest is that the whole Law and Chaos represented two opposing side in a campaign. And that campaigns has players on the side of Law and players on the said of Chaos. The neutrals were the folks that either side could try to recruit. Some Lawful players were quite shifty and sneaky, and some Chaos players were quite honorable. However as a rule the side of Law were generally on the side of civilization and the side of Chaos had monsters and barbarians.

As tabletop roleplaying developed into its own thing is seems natural to me that something more nuanced was developed.

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Old 10-03-2017, 04:18 PM   #60
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Honestly, I like the simplification of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy online having only one major group of "Fiends" in the form of Demons.
For the purposes of many delvers, "Things" (team Squid) are barely discernible from "Demons" (team Evil).

DF cosmology is kinds fuzzy. I'll split if off though, since it's off topic.
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