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Old 09-25-2017, 06:48 PM   #11
hal
 
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

As promised...

This "manor" has 1870 acres for the Lord to enjoy/administer to. HD size is number of people in the house (family), serf acres were land held by serfs and owed obligations on. Serfs could rent extra land in addition to their obligatory family land. If I were to ever run a GURPS HARN campaign via FG2, this is what I'd be using.

Code:
Family    Tenant                 HD  Skill    Serf       Free     Labor      Rent      Rent    Notes
ID        Occupation            Size          Acres      Acres     Days      Kind      Fees
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       1  Priest                  3    9         0        45         0         0         0     Owes Lord 1/2 Glebe Revenues
       2  Villien                 6   11        32         0       128        60        38      
       3  Cottar                  3   13         1         0         4        60         7      
       4  1/2 Villien             4   12        19         0        76        60        25      
       5  1/2 Villien             6   12        20         0        80        60        26      
       6  1/2 Villien             4   12        11         0        44        60        17      
       7  Woodcrafter             3   12         0        10         0        60        16     Business fee =  120d
       8  Villien Plus            3   12        33        25       132       210        39      
       9  Villien                 7   10        35         0       140        60        41      
      10  1/2 Villien             2    9        12         0        48        60        18      
      11  Villien                 5    9        34         0       136        60        40      
      12  Yeoman(LF)              3   14         0        14         0        60        20     Owes Military Service
      13  Villien Plus            5   10        28        30       112       240        34      
      14  Charcoaler              5   13         0        30         0        60        36     Business fee =  180d
      15  Cottar                  4   12         3         0        12        60         9      
      16  Yeoman(LB)              4   14         0        49         0        60        55     Owes Military Service
      17  1/4 Villien             3   11         7         0        28        60        13      
      18  Hideworker              6   13         0         5         0        60        11     Business fee =  144d
      19  1/4 Villien             2   12         6         0        24        60        12      
      20  Cottar                  4   14         2         0         8        60         8      
      21  Villien                 4   12        38         0       152        60        44      
      22  Cottar                  4    9         4         0        16        60        10      
      23  1/2 Villien            11    9        12         0        48        60        18      
      24  1/2 Villien             9    9        13         0        52        60        19      
      25  Villien                 7   11        40         0       160        60        46      
      26  1/4 Virgate Farmer      4   10         0         8         0       108        14      
      27  Villien                 9   12        29         0       116        60        35      
      28  Villien                 8    9        24         0        96        60        30      
      29  Small Farmer            5   12         0         5         0        90        11      
      30  1/4 Villien             6    9         5         0        20        60        11      
      31  Small Farmer            2   12         0         4         0        84        10      
      32  Villien                 8   14        29         0       116        60        35      
      33  Metalsmith              4   10         0        30         0        60        36     Business fee =  144d
      34  1/2 Villien             6   11        13         0        52        60        19      
      35  1/2 Villien             2    9        16         0        64        60        22      
      36  1/2 Villien             9   10        20         0        80        60        26      
      37  Miller                  4   10         0        20         0        60        26     Business fee =  240d
      38  Villien                 6   13        30         0       120        60        36      
      39  Salter                  3   12         0        15         0        60        21     Business fee =  120d
      40  Timberwight            10   11         0        10         0        60        16     Business fee =  216d
      41  1/4 Villien            11   10         6         0        24        60        12      
      42  Yeoman(LH)              3   10         0        62         0        60        68     Owes Military Service
      43  1/2 Villien             2   11        11         0        44        60        17      
      44  Yeoman(MF)              3   13         0        22         0        60        28     Owes Military Service
      45  1/2 Villien             3   11        11         0        44        60        17      
      46  Villien                 3   12        28         0       112        60        34      
      47  Villien Plus            3   12        21         5        84        90        27      
      48  1/2 Villien             9   11        19         0        76        60        25      
      49  Cottar                  2   10         3         0        12        60         9      
      50  Small Farmer            2   14         0         2         0        72         8      
      51  1/2 Villien             6   13        19         0        76        60        25      
      52  Cottar                  2   13         2         0         8        60         8      
      53  1/4 Villien             9   12         5         0        20        60        11      
      54  Cottar                  4    9         4         0        16        60        10      
      55  Cottar                  5   10         2         0         8        60         8      
      56  Yeoman(LF)              3    9         0        19         0        60        25     Owes Military Service
      57  1/2 Villien             2    9        19         0        76        60        25      
      58  Yeoman(MF)              3   13         0        22         0        60        28     Owes Military Service
      59  1/2 Villien             4   12        12         0        48        60        18      
      60  Villien                 4   12        29         0       116        60        35      
      61  Villien                 4   13        22         0        88        60        28      
      62  Villien                 7   10        40         0       160        60        46      
      63  Cottar                  2    9         5         0        20        60        11      
      64  1/2 Villien             3    9        13         0        52        60        19      
      65  1/2 Villien             4   10        19         0        76        60        25      
      66  1/4 Villien            11    9         5         0        20        60        11      
      67  Villien                 7    9        37         0       148        60        43      
      68  Small Farmer            2   10         0         5         0        90        11      
      69  1/4 Villien             2   13        10         0        40        60        16      
      70  Villien                 6   12        32         0       128        60        38      
      71  1/2 Villien             4   11        13         0        52        60        19      
      72  Cottar                  2   11         1         0         4        60         7      
      73  1/2 Villien             5   14        15         0        60        60        21      
      74  Small Farmer            2   11         0         3         0        78         9      
      75  Cottar                  3   13         3         0        12        60         9      
      76  Cottar                  3   11         4         0        16        60        10      
      77  Yeoman(LF)              5   10         0        16         0        60        22     Owes Military Service
      78  1/2 Villien             3   14        14         0        56        60        20      
      79  Villien                 6   13        30         0       120        60        36      
      80  1/4 Villien             3    9         8         0        32        60        14      
      81  Cottar                  6   13         3         0        12        60         9      
      82  Virgate Farmer          7   14         0        29         0       234        35      
      83  GM Choice               5    9         0         0         0         0         0     GM Choice
      84  Villien                 3   14        34         0       136        60        40      
      85  Cottar                 11   12         2         0         8        60         8      
      86  1/2 Villien             3   11        15         0        60        60        21      
      87  Cottar                 11   10         4         0        16        60        10      
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
  TOTALS                        416            978      1036       485      4144      5796
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:58 PM   #12
Rupert
 
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
As mentioned above, "Farming" or the rent of land from a lord, meant that the "Free" didn't have the rights to land like the unfree did.
That did depend on the time and place. Sometimes it was pretty easy for the landlord to evict renters. At other times it was next to impossible, sometimes even if they didn't pay their rents for extended periods.

Also, there were people who paid rents, but who weren't entirely free to leave the land. These situations and others could result in extended legal battles over whether someone was free or not, and sometimes they'd be counted as free for some purposes and unfree for others.
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:50 AM   #13
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
That did depend on the time and place. Sometimes it was pretty easy for the landlord to evict renters. At other times it was next to impossible, sometimes even if they didn't pay their rents for extended periods.

Also, there were people who paid rents, but who weren't entirely free to leave the land. These situations and others could result in extended legal battles over whether someone was free or not, and sometimes they'd be counted as free for some purposes and unfree for others.
Also, just to confuse matters - and as suggested by Hal's model village - you could hold a mixture of servile and free tenancies - your net status would probably be unfree, with various consequent duties, but you might well not owe customary service for all your land.
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

Note that in GURPS this is pegged to Control Rating, at least in Matt's excellent Pyramid articles on farming and land management.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:58 AM   #15
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Note that in GURPS this is pegged to Control Rating, at least in Matt's excellent Pyramid articles on farming and land management.
So high control rating society - i might have to jump through hoops low control if i have the dosh it is probably easy.
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Old 09-27-2017, 06:35 AM   #16
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

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Originally Posted by fifiste View Post
So high control rating society - i might have to jump through hoops low control if i have the dosh it is probably easy.
I would imagine that in a low CR society, getting land is easier, but keeping it harder - whereas a high CR society might have very secure tenure balanced by tightly limited access. Depends on the society of course - a traditional "irrigation based despotism" might well have high CR and insecure tenancy because there is, essentially, very little private property, whilst a rigid feudal system might well have near inescapable serfdom and feudal tenure, in which changing "caste" is very hard, but once there you are bound in position for generations.
In a very low CR society, you might well spend most of your time trying to stop people squatting on your land.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:45 AM   #17
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

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Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
Also, just to confuse matters - and as suggested by Hal's model village - you could hold a mixture of servile and free tenancies - your net status would probably be unfree, with various consequent duties, but you might well not owe customary service for all your land.
And while a wealthy peasant might pay rather than serve for some portion of his land, a poor peasant could serve more to make ends meet, i.e. hiring himself out to wealthier peasants or the landlord as a laborer, since his small parcel of land doesn't take up his full time and can't feed his family by itself.

Of course, it's likely almost none of these transactions are in coin. The difference in providing grain to rent land and working land in exchange for a cut of the grain is subtle.
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

It's not unlikely that those transactions had values measured in money, though. While many forms of service and many benefits were paid in various goods and rights/obligations, many also had a money value attached. They generally weren't paid for in actual coin, but rather accounts were kept and every so often they were settled up (likely annually, after the harvest), sometimes with actual coin, sometimes with goods to the value of the net debt. This is also how fines tended to be managed.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:56 PM   #19
hal
 
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
It's not unlikely that those transactions had values measured in money, though. While many forms of service and many benefits were paid in various goods and rights/obligations, many also had a money value attached. They generally weren't paid for in actual coin, but rather accounts were kept and every so often they were settled up (likely annually, after the harvest), sometimes with actual coin, sometimes with goods to the value of the net debt. This is also how fines tended to be managed.
When using HARN MANOR, (which I used to generate the sample village above), if a serf was reaching a point where they (by random die roll of course, but player characters would follow the same route!!!) had sufficient surplus to invest in the use of more land, they would simply petition the lord for more land, and agree to certain obligations to match what they agreed upon with the lord. For instance, many of the contracts were for a set duration (generally speaking, about 7 years). A lord might agree to let a tenant farm 15 acres for the annual fee of say (pulling numbers out of thin air here!) 15 shillings. So for 7 years, the tenant pays 15 shillings regardless of how good or bad the harvests were. Then, at the end of the contracted time, the tenant might want an additional 10 acres. So he contracts out for that, and pays the new agreed upon stipend for the land that is held by the Lord. Only this time, the tenant might only want a three year contract (or the Lord might only want 3 years). Maybe this time, the rents are only 14 shillings a year, etc.

As for real life? If a serf decided they wanted to purchase land, and could find someone willing to sell them land, what happened was that they'd agree to the transaction with the other serf, and BOTH had to approach the lord to ratify the agreement. This usually involved a court fee on the lord's part, and both parties to the transaction not only had to make their transaction occur with the blessing of the lord, but had to agree to the contractual obligations to the Lord himself.

For example, Old Widow Gisele holds 15 acres of land. She agrees to sell 10 rods of land to her neighbor for the sum of 2 shillings. She owes a given service to her Lord for the 15 acres of land, but if she separates 10 rods of land forever (as far as her children and grandchildren etc car concerned) then she's essentially modifying her contract with the Lord. If she still owes the same labor and obligations as before, she's got less land to show for it. If on the other hand, her neighbor agrees to assume some form of obligation - then THEIR contract with the lord is amended as well as hers, and now they owe not only the money paid to Gisele herself, but also to the Lord. This is in addition to the fee they paid to have the Lord ratify the change in contract.

So, can you purchase land per se? Sort of. Can you purchase land from a free holder who doesn't OWN land, but rents it from his Lord? Nope. All he can do is sub-rent the land at best, paying the renter some money to use the land he's willing to let him use at a high enough fee that the renter who originally held the rent agreement with his lord, isn't losing money.

Note too - that the custom of the manor in one manor might say X, but the custom of the manor at a manor located a mere 5 miles away might have a subtle variation. Some laws weren't even standardized - which is why "custom of the manor" has weight. It has a form of "unwritten law code" if you will that was no less and no more binding than written laws might be. Maybe the custom of the manor specifies that before a contract can be finalized, not only does the Widow have to agree, but her first born son also has to agree, as he is the one who stands to suffer (or gain) by the transaction. In yet another, the custom may be that a woman may not sell any portion of her holdings at all, while in yet another manor, it could be something odder yet. Who knows... ;)
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:13 AM   #20
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Default Re: historically becoming landed as a small fry

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And while a wealthy peasant might pay rather than serve for some portion of his land, a poor peasant could serve more to make ends meet, i.e. hiring himself out to wealthier peasants or the landlord as a laborer, since his small parcel of land doesn't take up his full time and can't feed his family by itself.

Of course, it's likely almost none of these transactions are in coin. The difference in providing grain to rent land and working land in exchange for a cut of the grain is subtle.
...and this worked all the way up, where the landlord might well be paying his own overlord (possibly the king) scutage rather than turning up for his knight service.
After a while - in agriculture and in military matters - landowners started to prefer cash to service.
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