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Old 09-23-2017, 10:59 PM   #1
Flyndaran
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Default Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

I decided to create a little chart of DR, but segmented plate is so horrible. I can't see any reason why anyone would choose it over scale or mail. It's more expensive, heavier, and less protective on average than either.

DR 3 is more expensive and barely 0.5 lbs lighter than 5/3 mail, for example.
So what am I doing wrong here?
Even assuming it's TL2, so is mail. And there's no option for advanced TL3/4 Brigandines anyway.
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Old 09-23-2017, 11:25 PM   #2
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

Faulds and tassets.
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Old 09-24-2017, 12:16 AM   #3
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

Those are real words.
Mail would still be better for the abdomen and legs according to these rules.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

I have used Segmented plate for characters in the past because it can be made into extra heavy plate while the chain cannot.
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

That's not mentioned in this article or any official book I'm aware of.
I understand that that might work as a nice kludge to make it less abysmal and more reasonable for some players though.
But my point that Segmented Plate is worse in nearly every single way to mail... up to whenever you decide it is too heavy for mail to be an option.
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:32 AM   #6
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

Also looking at mail compared to scale gives me pause.
Looking at just the crushing DR, scale is a bit lighter and much cheaper.
Looking at just the impaling/cutting DR, scale is a bit heavier and cheaper.
But taking them together makes scale the more sensible option if you will ever face blunt weapons.

So we have mail as much better than segmented plate, and scale better than either. That disagrees quite a bit with historical armor progressions.

How has everyone that's used this article dealt with that?
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Old 09-24-2017, 04:30 AM   #7
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

Not all settings and locations necessarily have access to all potential options. So sometimes a sub optimal choice (by GURPS rules) in terms of the entire armour chart, may not be available in a particular setting. And yeah ultimately not all technologies even if they theoretically concurrent are as good as each other.

Also isn't Segmented plate lighter than Scale at DR4 & DR5?

And yeah OK mail is lighter at all DR's but you have the -2DR vs Cr.

Scale at the higher DR's is really heavy. DR5 is 40lbs for torso, so torso, upper arms, thighs and knees will weight 68lbs that's a lot, especially when you factor a helmet in, plus what ever else your running around with!

Obviously that last point depends on what your ST is.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-24-2017 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 09-24-2017, 10:03 AM   #8
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

Mail was the preferred type of armour by almost every metal using culture on the planet for the best part of two thousand years. Even when plate was available and cheaper than mail we still have many examples of people preferring to wear mail.
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Old 09-24-2017, 10:13 AM   #9
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

My gaming groups tend to favour TL2 settings, with a little bit of TL3 sprinkled from high tech manufacturers and hub cities. The two armour designs we commonly see happen to be: Segmented Plate and Chainmail.

First, light mail vs light segmented plate on the torso:
Weight: 4lb/DR vs 5.3lb/DR
Cost: $167/DR vs $200/DR

So for the lightest versions of both, we've got light chainmail coming out ahead on both fronts. Chain is also faster to put on and harder to spot. A very important thing to consider is that mail takes a -2 against crushing damage. Against crushing, it's suddenly:
Weight: 12lb/DR vs 5.3lb/DR
Cost: $500/DR vs $200/DR

Crushing weapons tend to be the most effective weapons on the battlefield against heavily armoured opponents (high base damage lets them hurt through armour, even if the wounding modifier isn't great), so this alone might be enough to swing your choice in favour of segmented plate. Now if we go up to the heaviest armour offered in Low Tech Instant Armour, here's what we get:
Weight: 3.6lb/DR vs 6.4lb/DR
Cost: $240/DR vs $240/DR

So our price per DR is now the same, with segmented plate weighting an extra 2.8lb/DR. In exchange for the extra weight you get 2 more DR than chain against crushing damage. In our games we tended to see our front line, bulky fighters pick up segmented plate, while our backline wizards and archers wore chainmail of some sort.

There's one final thing to consider in favour of segmented plate: it can be made heavier. The "Heavy Plate" rules on Low Tech pg 109 apply to segmented plate as well. If you want heavier chainmail you're stuck layering suits and sucking up the -1 to DX.

Looking at all of that, the armours are fairly competitive with each other. Chainmail wins out on weight, and offers equal protection against cutting and impaling attacks, which makes it a strong choice for back line combatants who worry about ranged attacks more than melee. Segmented Plate wins out on protection at the expense of weight, making it more useful for high ST front line characters who are more likely to encounter crushing weapons.
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:42 AM   #10
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Low Tech II what am I missing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VariousRen View Post
My gaming groups tend to favour TL2 settings, with a little bit of TL3 sprinkled from high tech manufacturers and hub cities. The two armour designs we commonly see happen to be: Segmented Plate and Chainmail.

First, light mail vs light segmented plate on the torso:
Weight: 4lb/DR vs 5.3lb/DR
Cost: $167/DR vs $200/DR

So for the lightest versions of both, we've got light chainmail coming out ahead on both fronts. Chain is also faster to put on and harder to spot. A very important thing to consider is that mail takes a -2 against crushing damage. Against crushing, it's suddenly:
Weight: 12lb/DR vs 5.3lb/DR
Cost: $500/DR vs $200/DR

Crushing weapons tend to be the most effective weapons on the battlefield against heavily armoured opponents (high base damage lets them hurt through armour, even if the wounding modifier isn't great), so this alone might be enough to swing your choice in favour of segmented plate. Now if we go up to the heaviest armour offered in Low Tech Instant Armour, here's what we get:
Weight: 3.6lb/DR vs 6.4lb/DR
Cost: $240/DR vs $240/DR

So our price per DR is now the same, with segmented plate weighting an extra 2.8lb/DR. In exchange for the extra weight you get 2 more DR than chain against crushing damage. In our games we tended to see our front line, bulky fighters pick up segmented plate, while our backline wizards and archers wore chainmail of some sort.

There's one final thing to consider in favour of segmented plate: it can be made heavier. The "Heavy Plate" rules on Low Tech pg 109 apply to segmented plate as well. If you want heavier chainmail you're stuck layering suits and sucking up the -1 to DX.

Looking at all of that, the armours are fairly competitive with each other. Chainmail wins out on weight, and offers equal protection against cutting and impaling attacks, which makes it a strong choice for back line combatants who worry about ranged attacks more than melee. Segmented Plate wins out on protection at the expense of weight, making it more useful for high ST front line characters who are more likely to encounter crushing weapons.
For me Mail wins over Segmented because the weight is so much less*. At DR5 Mail is almost half the weight of segmented (and less than half that of scale)

I agree with your point about Cr, but taking advantage of that does limit your opponents options.

Pretty much all one handed axe/mace cr weapons are reach 1 and 0U (those that are parry 0 tend to do less damage), even two handed axe/mace cr weapons tend to be limited to reach 1 and 0U at TL2.

Given equal skill levels I'd rather a reach 1,2 spear in two hands that I can parry with and play reach games with. Especially if I'm wearing armour half the weight of my opponent.

Historically speaking I think I'm right in saying spears, arrows and swords were far more likely to be the standard main weapon of troops rather than Cr weapons.

On top of that mail is flexible



*however a lot of this is down to my campaign style, I run pretty non heroic ST levels and I use the last gasp rules. The low weight per DR of mail shines under those conditions!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-25-2017 at 05:28 AM.
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