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Old 09-21-2017, 06:06 PM   #21
sir_pudding
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
Ok then just have one class of monster "generic supernatural evil" instead of demon, undead, fairy etc. No wonder GURPS is only a small niche game....
Yes, the real world ambiguity of folkloric sources compared to monster manual taxonomic specificity is exactly why GURPS sucks.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:25 PM   #22
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Yes, the real world ambiguity of folkloric sources compared to monster manual taxonomic specificity is exactly why GURPS sucks.
The idea is to have interesting differences between monsters so that there is variety. These are just suggestions to make the gaming experience more interesting. Believe it or not some people enjoy having some explanation as to why a monster is sitting in a dungeon.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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The idea is to have interesting differences between monsters so that there is variety. These are just suggestions to make the gaming experience more interesting. Believe it or not some people enjoy having some explanation as to why a monster is sitting in a dungeon.
Because in the real world "demon" is ambiguous across cultures means nothing in my games can have motives?
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Because in the real world "demon" is ambiguous across cultures means nothing in my games can have motives?
DF is a kitchen sink fantasy game which means it takes fantasy from many sources and puts them together. When people think of demons, one version that comes up is the Christian concept of demons where they were one angels that have fallen and chosen to be evil. The Christian concept is over represented because it is so well known. Other demons that come from myths are evil beings that just came into being and opposed the gods. It is true that the latter is far more prevalent in myths but the former is more popular due to religion.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:17 PM   #25
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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The idea is to have interesting differences between monsters so that there is variety. These are just suggestions to make the gaming experience more interesting. Believe it or not some people enjoy having some explanation as to why a monster is sitting in a dungeon.
It is easier to do in an epic. Usually they got cursed by the gods or got greedy for gold, stole it from their brother and cast a spell on themselves. Or got invited in by the Evil Overlord. Or whatever. But if it just a Monster-of-the-Week you may not have time for that stuff and adventurers might not have a reason to know why it is there.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:21 PM   #26
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

I am very happy that Dungeon Fantasy, while a complete game, doesn't waste any pages hammering out a setting that I will very likely not be using. If I wanted to play AD&D, I'd be playing AD&D. It isn't hard to find copies of. Instead I am looking forward to a great many things that I can drop into appropriate places in a setting of my choosing/creation without having to sort out a bunch of extraneous information that won't be at all useful to my goals in any way.

I have played with a devil/demon dichotomy for over a quarter of a century. I am very familiar with all aspects of The Great Wheel. If the DFRPG tried to file the serial numbers down on those tropes I would not be half as interested or inspired by the game as I feel I am.

Thank goodness that the DFRPG writers had the vision to give the game a sturdy foundation with plenty of room for customization and expansion instead of pigeonholing every aspect possible into tight little boxes.

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b-dog... by all means, making things from AD&D to fit into the DFRPG is a great goal. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in that and a lot of good work can come from it. However, you seem to have a persistent notion that the DFRPG must be some sort of AD&D/mythological pastiche or setting clone. This is neither necessary nor helpful and detracts from what creative ideas or analytical translations of existing works that you put forward.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:00 AM   #27
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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"Demon vs. devil" is a D&D invention. The distinction qualifies as theirs in the legal sense, so you're never going to see it in GURPS or the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. It doesn't have support in folklore or mythology, which means we'd be on very shaky ground adopting it, because we'd have nothing in the public domain to point to as our source.
And also in Infernum, Book of the Damned (where, IIRC, demons were natives to Hell, and devils were fallen angels), so it's not unique to ADD.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:43 AM   #28
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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And also in Infernum, Book of the Damned (where, IIRC, demons were natives to Hell, and devils were fallen angels), so it's not unique to ADD.
Wow, that looks really cool. I will have to check that game out.
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:36 AM   #29
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

I seem to recall Ars Magica having a distinction between "hell bent" and "heaven sent" as far as demons. I think creating those distinctions can be fun for a given GM or setting ... is "demon" just what everyone calls anything they don't understand, or perhaps it's an elaborate hierarchy of origin and deed among demons, devils, daemons, deevils, etc. I think the idea of adding variety is cool, but personally find the AD&D demon / devils overplayed (as a long time player) ... but no reason one couldn't take elements they like and remix.
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:37 AM   #30
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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What about the difference between the fallen angels and the demons that formed from pure evil?
"Fallen angels becoming demons" assume a unique and upper origin for all things, matching with "monotheism", and with the adage corruptio optimi pessima. As you said, we find this in Christianity for instance.

"Demons formed from pure evil", instead, relate to dualistic cosmologies (in the Gnostic/Manichaean/Cathar sense), or even to maltheism (in the sense of darkness as "the only true principle").

Another origin for devils (or demons) is they as the "dark brothers" of angels (or plural divinities), matching with cosmic dualities (not to mistake with dualism, which is irresolvable), again originating from a single extra-cosmic source. This can be found in Hinduism.

Even deep layers of meaning redeeming "the demonic" by linking it with the unmanifest as the upper darkness, have nothing to do with the distinction you're looking for.

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I do like the AD&D split between demons and devils, maybe the split might be between the fallen who were once angels but were cast into Hell (devils) and those malign beings that arose from the Abyss and sort of were created out of pure evil (demons).
Even if fallen angels turned into demons haven't the same origins than beings native to hell, they are demons/devils in any case: it's just that these angels, now demons, in the first place were the opposite at the dawn of creation.



I don't see how any of these angles matches with the demons & devils distinction enunciated in this thread, and for what it's worth I don't find it very meaningful. As it has been said above, all of it is related to an opposition between lawful and chaotic alignments between the very infernal beings, which is a very specific setting assumpion, the Blood War.

It lacks universality, intrinsic sense, and I can't find anything matching with such a thing in myth, cosmology, folklore or theology.

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Originally Posted by DemiBenson View Post
And also in Infernum, Book of the Damned (where, IIRC, demons were natives to Hell, and devils were fallen angels), so it's not unique to ADD.
I don't know this OGL RPG, but at first glance, it looks to my mind like a distinction likely inherited from D&D.

Now, the distinction between fallen angels and beings native to hell makes sense in itself, but calling devils the former and the latter demons, or vice versa, still is rather peculiar.
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