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Old 09-21-2017, 01:28 PM   #11
sir_pudding
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

Demon versus devil also only really works if you have a distinction between chaotic and lawful alignments. In DF there is Evil and Insane, but Elder Things fill the Insane category, so in a sense DF demons are devils and DF Elder Things are demons.
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:58 PM   #12
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Finally, Elder Things aren't material. They aren't extradimensional in the usual sense, either. They are strictly speaking outside the concept of dimensions. I'm not partial to the D&D cosmology, but using that as our example: if the Ethereal Plane (meaning all the Ethereal Planes) surrounds the Prime and connects it to the Inner Planes, and the Astral Plane surrounds all that and connects it to the Outer Planes, then Elder Things lurk in whatever surrounds all that – what some D&D works call the Far Realm or simply Outside.
I guess I much prefer the idea that Elder Things are in the physical universe. Some are flying between the stars like the migo while deep ones live in the real ocean. They are just out of phase of our dimension until the stars are aligned. Haster is out in space and Cthulhu below the sea waiting for their time when the dimensions come together. Cultists can perform rituals to contact the Elder Things across the dimensions and possibly cause them to align bringing death and destruction to mankind. Elder Things IMO are not gods, neither Divine nor Infernal, they are just the sad truth about reality that there are beings within it that destroy humanity effortlessly. The gods shunted them to other dimensions but they are still there and their presence can be felt by mortals who are close to them.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

The big problem with AD&D style demons (which it is notable that even D&D has moved away from) is that they're complicated to actually run. That's okay for a boss fight, but most of the sample monsters are at most Worthies.
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Old 09-21-2017, 04:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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"Demon vs. devil" is a

The distinction between "entity indigenous to Hell" and "soul trapped in Hell and turned into something awful" is another matter. For sure, damned souls of former mortals aren't the same thing as bad guys that came into being on another plane of existence and never did a hitch as a mortal. That distinction has a lot more support in myth and folklore, and could be fun to explore in future works!
What about the difference between the fallen angels and the demons that formed from pure evil? I would think those that fell from grace did so because of envy and pride and the desire to rule creation in place of the Divine. The demons that formed from evil or the Abyss likely want to destroy and subjugate creation.
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Old 09-21-2017, 04:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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What about the difference between the fallen angels and the demons that formed from pure evil?
Generally beyond the scope of anything DF would care about. DF does not do complex theology.
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

What about the worlds where there never were fallen angels and never will be?

Or worlds where there isn't an Abyss?

Last edited by Stone Dog; 09-21-2017 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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What about the worlds where there never were fallen angels and never will be?

Or worlds where there isn't an Abyss?
I have no idea. But myths commonly have two main sources of demons, one is from some sort of chaos or region of evil like the Abyss and the other is being part of the pantheon and then rebelling against the gods in power. I am sure there are others.
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:37 PM   #18
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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I have no idea. But myths commonly have two main sources of demons, one is from some sort of chaos or region of evil like the Abyss and the other is being part of the pantheon and then rebelling against the gods in power. I am sure there are others.
Myths do not reliably distinguish between 'demon' and 'generic supernatural evil'. It's totally plausible to have every monster in a dungeon be demonic (actually, it's plausible to have a dungeon itself be a demon).
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Myths do not reliably distinguish between 'demon' and 'generic supernatural evil'. It's totally plausible to have every monster in a dungeon be demonic (actually, it's plausible to have a dungeon itself be a demon).
Ok then just have one class of monster "generic supernatural evil" instead of demon, undead, fairy etc. No wonder GURPS is only a small niche game....
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:01 PM   #20
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Ok then just have one class of monster "generic supernatural evil" instead of demon, undead, fairy etc.
It's useful to come up with those additional categories for a DF type game, as it allows niche expertise, just don't make the mistake of thinking it has anything to do with real-world myths.
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