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Old 09-11-2017, 10:07 AM   #21
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Then the question will be 'what does ATR represent?'. Because if it represent doing all the same things faster, then it would be weird for it not to affect the chance to evade at all. This answer is a middle ground compromise between piecemeal purchases (buy what you want to have) and logical consequences of the effects the trait represents.
Yes, it is a weird trait which represents somehow taking extra manuvers in combat without the side effects which should probably follow with such an ability. Being able to use one of those extra manuvers to defend don't really make you better at defending than normal people (who can also all out defend), it just means that you can do more in a single turn.

Alternatively if you just look at the rules as written in the Basic Set rather than placing priority on Kromm's forum posts etc., then it is the case that ATR actually makes time pass twice as fast for you in all respects (except reaction time), but GURPS don't take speed into account when determining how easy it is for people to defend against attacks (neither for the defender nor for the attack which is why it is equally easy to dodge a bullet and a thrown rock), so the end result is kind of the same for combat (except if you introduced rules for how speed affect those things, in which case ATR might get significantly more useful).

Last edited by Andreas; 09-11-2017 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:07 AM   #22
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

Yeah, had a highly skilled dual-wielding fencer in my previous campaign and a common tactic for the party was to Great Haste him.

He'd do Heroic Charge, All-Out Attack-Double, Rapid Strike, Extra Attack, and hit four times (two at rapid penalty), then for his second turn, he'd do a Step and Attack, Rapid Strike, Extra Attack and hit three times and still be able get his normal fencing parries.

He'd tear through enemy forces.
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:40 AM   #23
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
It is not a very good answer anyway. Not only can waiting negate such a defense,
Deathstroke stabbed Wally West by Waiting.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:18 PM   #24
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Deathstroke stabbed Wally West by Waiting.
Yes, but that does not mean that Waiting should negate the bonuses from a speed advantage. Waiting does not necessarily mean that you successfully anticipate how your opponent is going to move (which Deathstroke seemed to do in the comic page which I assume you are refering to). Also as I understand it (and which that comic page seems to support with the "but he's quicker where it counts" statement), even if he can't run as fast as Wally West, Deathstroke is also superhumanly fast in his ability to pull of such feats.

If you somehow predict how your opponent is going to move and if your timing is good enough (perhaps due to having something like Enhanced Time Sense), it would be entirely reasonable be able to stap someone no matter how fast he is.

However if you can't predict how your opponent is going to move and especially if your opponent adjusts his movements based on what you do, then being much faster would reasonably give a huge advantage to your opponent regardless of whether you are willing to Wait or not.

Last edited by Andreas; 09-11-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Yes, but that does not mean that Waiting should negate the bonuses from a speed advantage. Waiting does not necessarily mean that you successfully anticipate how your opponent is going to move (which Deathstroke seemed to do in the comic page which I assume you are refering to). Also as I understand it (and which that comic page seems to support with the "but he's quicker where it counts" statement), even if he can't run as fast as Wally West, Deathstroke is also superhumanly fast in his ability to pull of such feats.

If you somehow predict how your opponent is going to move and if your timing is good enough (perhaps due to having something like Enhanced Time Sense), it would be entirely reasonable be able to stap someone no matter how fast he is.

However if you can't predict how your opponent is going to move and especially if your opponent adjusts his movements based on what you do, then being much faster would reasonably give a huge advantage to your opponent regardless of whether you are willing to Wait or not.
The speedster still has the advantage here. If someone is sitting on a Wait maneuver, don't AoA!
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The speedster still has the advantage here. If someone is sitting on a Wait maneuver, don't AoA!
Not for defending against such attacks. The ATR only speedster being a speedster does not in GURPS make him better at defense against someone who Waits (though it does of course give him large advantages in other regards). Hitting such a speedster by Waiting is equally difficult as hitting a normal person in the same way.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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Not for defending against such attacks. The ATR only speedster being a speedster does not in GURPS make him better at defense against someone who Waits (though it does of course give him large advantages in other regards). Hitting such a speedster by Waiting is equally difficult as hitting a normal person in the same way.
AoD:Dodge while running up to the waiter, triggering their Wait, then Attack (and use your presumably huge Step to get back out of their Reach).
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
AoD:Dodge while running up to the waiter, triggering their Wait, then Attack (and use your presumably huge Step to get back out of their Reach).
That does not make him more likely to avoid that attack than a normal person who runs up with AoD:Dodge to trigger the wait like that like that. It just means that the he is fast enough to run away before the opponent might attack a second time.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:04 PM   #29
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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That does not make him more likely to avoid that attack than a normal person who runs up with AoD:Dodge to trigger the wait like that like that. It just means that the he is fast enough to run away before the opponent might attack a second time.
The normal guy doesn't get a +2 dodge bonus, and an unpenalized attack. They get limited defenses and a wild swing (or +2 dodge and no attack at all)!

Edit: Does Super-Speed Talent add half levels to defenses? It probably should.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 09-11-2017 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: Altered time rate /Great Haste question.

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The normal guy doesn't get a +2 dodge bonus, and an unpenalized attack. They get limited defenses and a wild swing!
No, the normal guy definitely gets the bonus for his AoD:Dodge maneuver while running up. He then gets an unpenalised attack in the next round.
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