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Old 09-30-2013, 09:38 AM   #51
Yako
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
The penalty for being held with nothing to push off of should be similar to being in free fall without the nausea effects. That's -5 to DX, and (rounding up), -3 to Parry and Block. Since the free fall skill also impacts HT, that makes it a flat -3 to Active Defenses.

That makes "suspended in midair" like this on the Posture Table:

Posture Attack Defense Target Movement
Suspended -5 -3 Normal None
Lying Down -4 -3 -2 1 yard/second

So it's a bit worse than lying down for attacking, equivalent for defending, you're no smaller a target than you were standing up, and have no purchase so you can't move.

The Free Fall skill helps you buy this off; it'd be somewhat legit, I think, to treat this as a technique rather than a skill, since the only purpose of Free Fall is to buy off a penalty, much like Ground Fighting. Make it a Hard Technique like ground fighting.
This sounds incredible sensible and easy to use, thanks, I shall go with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding
Is this what the Pickup option that we are talking about is for? If the rules for grappling are still "very sparse" I can't imagine what you'd require for adequate rules on the subject. Do you think Technical Grappling needed to be 100+ pages?
As technicle grappling is as far as I can see it, a quite detailed optional grappling rule system, I was referring to Basic mostly, which is one of the few places that addresses Telekinesis for grappling.

And while pickup is a good fit for technical grappling, I think wanting solution for the basic rule set should not be that farfetched an idea.

Also, Binding as an alternative attack / ability would create a situation where, to achieve the effect, a character first has to hit with the binding, then lift an opponent, with the reverse being impossible and also making it necessary to escape both the binding and the telekinetic grapple, so, this is pretty clunky and plays out with even MORE implausible results.

My complaint was lack of a perceived realistic consequence of dangling in the air not to make an ability that works really counter intuitively...

@Edges: That would also be a practical solution (and to throw someone around or do other stuff with them, one can just add the 0/1/3 remaining seconds to lift them in a position where it would enable such stunts)
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Old 10-31-2013, 02:56 AM   #52
Vynticator
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Handy thread this, thanks.

My query is about the defences allowed against TK Grab.

1) The Hearing roll at -2 to block or parry: might one make this harder still for TK Grab? My understanding is that you're only making the displacement noise of a pair of hands.

TK Grab doesn't project an entire invisible version of yourself, does it? So actually we're asking the defender to hear the noise of a couple of invisible hands. It feels to me that -2 is rather an under-assessment of the penalty to hear that in time to defend against it! I can understand if you've got breathing and footfalls and clothing rustling, and there are *no* other background noises, maybe you'd give -2. But if you're just talking about hearing the *air* move from someone's invisible telekinetic hands...? That's got to be more like a -8. Factor in (for instance) strong winds, the clash and hammer of surrounding melee combat, screams of the injured, bellows of the other combatants... and pretty soon the Hearing roll becomes nearly impossible.

2) Dodge at -4. One might suppose the -4 to Dodge is based on the supposition of a human invisible foe whose attacks would come in a *reasonably* predictable arc (ie. you might infer they are a right-handed invisible swordsman, etc). A TK Grab pair of hands is much less predictable, since you can make them appear one second behind their neck grappling to choke, the next to the flank grabbing their foot to up-end them, the third moment the hands are pulling the pins on your grenade belt, etc. The hands don't exist necessarily as a summoned permanent entity, do they? So their 'travel' time is instant, they cannot be attacked and killed, as such? Surely that would be much harder to dodge (perhaps reflected by the use of Rear or Flank attack penalties on top of the -4 for invisible).
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:43 AM   #53
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

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Originally Posted by Vynticator View Post
Handy thread this, thanks.

My query is about the defences allowed against TK Grab.

1) The Hearing roll at -2 to block or parry: might one make this harder still for TK Grab? My understanding is that you're only making the displacement noise of a pair of hands.

TK Grab doesn't project an entire invisible version of yourself, does it? So actually we're asking the defender to hear the noise of a couple of invisible hands. It feels to me that -2 is rather an under-assessment of the penalty to hear that in time to defend against it! I can understand if you've got breathing and footfalls and clothing rustling, and there are *no* other background noises, maybe you'd give -2. But if you're just talking about hearing the *air* move from someone's invisible telekinetic hands...? That's got to be more like a -8. Factor in (for instance) strong winds, the clash and hammer of surrounding melee combat, screams of the injured, bellows of the other combatants... and pretty soon the Hearing roll becomes nearly impossible.

2) Dodge at -4. One might suppose the -4 to Dodge is based on the supposition of a human invisible foe whose attacks would come in a *reasonably* predictable arc (ie. you might infer they are a right-handed invisible swordsman, etc). A TK Grab pair of hands is much less predictable, since you can make them appear one second behind their neck grappling to choke, the next to the flank grabbing their foot to up-end them, the third moment the hands are pulling the pins on your grenade belt, etc. The hands don't exist necessarily as a summoned permanent entity, do they? So their 'travel' time is instant, they cannot be attacked and killed, as such? Surely that would be much harder to dodge (perhaps reflected by the use of Rear or Flank attack penalties on top of the -4 for invisible).
Don't forget the -6 for invisible attacker making defense hard. The Low/No signature enhancements will also affect hearing rolls.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:19 AM   #54
Terwin
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Question: what speed is 'lift over your head in 1 second'?
How about 2 or 4 seconds?

As TK already has a speed calculation, are these even speeds that should be used with TK?

TK 15 vs a 200 lb person would lift them at move 6 (15*0.4 for heavy encumbrance)
That seems a bit faster than taking 4 seconds to lift them 'over your head'.
Even move 3 for a 400 lb target seems much faster than the described lift speed for ST.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:18 AM   #55
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Don't forget the -6 for invisible attacker making defense hard. The Low/No signature enhancements will also affect hearing rolls.
The -6 is to attack. I'm talking about defences here.

Any thoughts on my suggested pricing for the defence penalties in this situation? I have a battle coming up where it will be very pertinent.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:39 AM   #56
Yako
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Personally, I always reckoned that you do not go by the sound as much as the FEEL of something trying to get hold of you.
Thus, if you have no idea some might be telekinetically grappling you, it is no defense, same as with a surprise attack or other such things, but if you do know (and stupid foes should have to make an INT roll to understand what is happening), you can try to wriggle out, so to say as it is trying to get you or at least move around to be a less easy target.

Personally, I did play with flank plus invisible for ear attacks which you know are coming, but...
I personally think -4 and having to know it is coming at all should suffice.
Further, as an invisible attacker can be ANYTHING, including an invisible shooter and similar, I do not think TK should be more of a special case than anything else.

I usually give the telekinetic one undodgeable attempt agaist every foe who does not know her powers, but once a foe has felt or witnessed it, he can dodge like against an invisible attacker.
I would never allow a parry or block though (which are the defences that need a hearing roll), it just makes no sense to parry a telekinetic force with anything but a power parry or such maybe.
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:44 AM   #57
djones
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Does See Invisible work on Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
I'd say so, as long as your See Invisible matched either the source OR the descriptive category of the Telekinesis. A Detect would probably be better for most builds, I think.
I'd say it also depends on the power source of the telekinetic effect. As written by default it's direct mental manipulation of kinetic energy so there's not really anything invisible there to see. If it's an invisible hand then sure.

Detect makes more sense for psychokinesis, as NAS says. The Mage Sight spell for strands of arcane force, magnetic vision for magnetism based TK and so forth.
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:19 PM   #58
Kil0v0lt
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quick question:

With regards to telekinetic grappling and the rule of 16, there are occasional quick contests of strength, like when the opponent attempts to break free. Which, then ends up being TK level vs. your opponents ST. Can the rule of 16 be applied to this quick contest, given that it isn't a skill based quick contest, and the rule of 16 entry changes the attacker's effective skill level?

Last edited by Kil0v0lt; 09-06-2017 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:38 PM   #59
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kil0v0lt View Post
Quick question:

With regards to telekinetic grappling and the rule of 16, there are occasional quick contests of strength, like when the opponent attempts to break free. Which, then ends up being TK level vs. your opponents ST. Can the rule of 16 be applied to this quick contest, given that it isn't a skill based quick contest, and the rule of 16 entry changes the attacker's effective skill level?
Note, this would probably be better asked as a new thread, since it really has very little to do with the original topic, and people are less likely to check an old, long thread, particularly one dredged up from years ago.

Anyway, though, that said, I would not apply the Rule of 16 to TK ST in a grapple, no. The point of the Rule of 16 is so that people can't pump their activation attribute/skill super-high and effectively beat everyone who can't similarly pump their resistance stat. But the Rule of 16 doesn't apply to regular grapples with ST, because a) ST is relatively more expensive to buy up than most resisted abilities, and b) it just doesn't make as much sense - a stronger grappler should be more successful, pretty much indefinitely the stronger they get. Similar considerations apply to TK - relatively cheap ways to buy its effective ST up are rarer (you can't use the Reliable enhancement, for example, and even Talents don't help with this), and in any case, it makes little sense for physical ST to be uncapped for grappling while TK is.
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